Upgrading sub to get a live feel.

Hello mcreyn,

       Between you arguing for the ability for mega-bass at arena rock volume levels in his living room and me arguing for very high quality bass at less masochistic volume levels, I believe thewatcher101 will understand his options and decide for himself.  
     To be fair, I wanted to point out that running subs well within their limits is definitely beneficial, mainly lower distortion, a sense of ease to the bass and ample power reserves  for powerful bass dynamics.  
     For balance, I wanted to also point out that my Swarm system, with four 4 ohm passive (not self amplified) subs each consisting of a single 10" long-throw driver in a 1'x1'x28" cabinet that are all driven by a single 1K watt class AB amp connected in a series-parallel configuration, operates well within its limits, provides low distortion bass with a sense of ease and ample power reserves for powerful dynamics with the volume control set at the 11:00 o'clock position, a bit less than halfway.  In the four years I've used the Swarm, I've honestly never perceived the bass as being not loud or powerful enough on either music or H T. I perceive the bass output as consistently high quality, powerful, dynamic, with not only a sense of ease and naturalness but also a sense of unlimited capacity no matter what volume level is chosen on the Oppo's remote. 
     I could be wrong, but I currently believe a 4-sub DBA consisting of a pair of PB-1000 and a pair of SB-1000 self amplified subs is likely capable of performing just as well, provided the OP wasn't referring to hearing loss inducing volume levels when he mentioned "upgrading sub to get a live feel". 
     You are now welcome to the last word as we await watcher's verdict.




  

I am going to be a live feel, not actual live music db. 

Be patient. 

Hello watcher,

     I think you meant to say "I’m going for a live feel, not actual live music dbs."
     If so, I’m very glad to hear that since you’ll likely be more inclined to really enjoy the bass performance of your new custom 4-sub DBA system consisting of your two existing SB-1000s and the two new PB-1000s.
Mcreyn was right about the bigger and more expensive Seaton and JL Audio subs producing even deeper, louder and more powerful bass than the SVS-1000 series subs are capable of.
    However, I believe mcreyn’s knowledge and experience on subs is more slanted toward HT usage like many of the members on the AVS website that put more value on the size, bass extension, room shaking capacity and maximum deep bass db level ability as signs of a sub’s quality. In general, Audiogon members knowledge and experience on subs is more slanted toward music usage and they put more value on the sound quality and seamless integration with the main speakers as signs of a sub’s quality.
     Mcreyn’s suggestion that you need subs with a capacity to output deep bass down to 20 Hz at a volume level of 115 dbs to match the max output of your JBL main speakers was ridiculous and an obvious clue that his priority is not high quality music reproduction, which I believe your main priority is.
    I’ll continue to monitor this thread just in case you need assistance but I realize it may take a month until you have your new custom 4-sub DBA up and running.

Later,
Tim

I would stop what I’m doing, not think twice and jump on this opportunity to purchase the REL S/5 SHO which is now reduced $600 to make run for a model update this fall. For under 2k you cannot but a better sub. In fact, a better one doesn’t exist for under 2.5k - the regular price. https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoofers/serie-s/s5/

Tim,

Thanks for your assumptions, but they are completely wrong.  It is rather ironic that you attack my position and claim that high quality music reproduction is not my goal, while you time and time again say that the quality of subs matters little, only the quantity.  Keep in mind your frame of reference is that your bass is the best you have heard.  That doesn't mean that there aren't much better sounding subwoofers, just that you haven't experienced them.  It is akin to someone saying that a quarter pounder at McDonalds is the best burger out there and the only way to do one, when the only burgers they have ever had are from Sonic and Burger King.  McDonalds may the best that person has had, but it doesn't mean they are the best.  

For the record, I don't have a home theater system and never have.  I did hook my TV up my stereo this year after we rearranged the room and the TV ended up between the speakers (someone gave us a 75" TV).  Since I don't want movies, I think I have listened to the TV through the stereo twice, the $179 Yamaha Soundbar from Costco is what I use, as it gives great dialog clarity without blasting the sound level.  

I do have a lot of experience with subwoofers and their integration.  More than 30 years ago, I started building subwoofer enclosures for cars because the ones that I heard were all boomy and crap sounding.  At that point, all calculations had to be run by hand using the Thiel Small parameters and a calculator.  

The great thing about cars is they have a fixed cabin gain below about 50 hz with NO standing wave issues and a fast decay time.  With good drivers and a properly designed enclosure (or infinite baffle) you can get amazing, accurate, low distortion bass in a car.  With cabin gain, a well designed sealed enclosure will roll off at the same rate as the gain, with perfectly flat response to below 20hz.  I am not talking about the 160db SPL competition bass (which is achieved with narrowly tuned vented enclosures in the 60-70hz range), I am talking the ability to hit 115db cleanly down to 20hz.  The current system in an old BMW I have does exactly this (HSU 12" driver in a 1.25ft sealed enclosure, QTC .65, mains will do about 105db).  

There is something magical that happens when you have that free dynamic headroom.  Most home subs suffer from dynamic compression and distortion when turned up.  It starts in the 90db range below 30hz for nearly all subs, until you start getting into the big boys.  For example, even the Velodyne DD18+, considered a huge, accurate sub, cannot hit more than 110db at 30hz, 105 at 20hz.  Same for a Rythmik F18. 

When all you have ever heard are subs that are running into dynamic compression and distortion (which is the case with almost all home subs when pushed to even 100db), they sound great, until you hear a setup that doesn't.   When you hear the setup that doesn't you experience this effortless, fast, tight, bass that seems to come from blackness.  It also has a dramatic effect on the sound of the mains, making them sound much cleaner.

At the end of the day, it is not about hitting huge SPL levels, it is about getting the best sound, which requires using subs that can stay clean and not run into dynamic compression.  4 10" subs can't do this in a reasonably sized room.  It is why my progression of home subs has taken me from Velodyne F series, through ULD's, to HGS, and finally Rythmik.  At each step, it has seemed to be amazing (and better than anything I ever heard at a dealer), but the next step revealed more.  

Finally, you can rag on those guys at the AVS forums, but unlike many, they spend a lot of time correlating objective data with subjective sound to get improvements.