Upgrading sub to get a live feel.

Sorry about mcreyn and phusis having a discussion on the benefits of horn tapped subs in the middle of your thread. I just found out they're both longtime members of the Church of Latter Day Bass. A little rude but no big deal.

"Church of Latter Day Bass" - good one, thanks for the early night (local time) chuckle here. 

Tim, being you're a rather frequent collaborator and advocate of a "four-and-only" sub approach many of us know all too well by now - one that certainly has its merits (and one I don't necessarily disapprove of per se) - it would nonetheless only seem prudent, in a effort to diversify the subject a bit, to throw in an alternative bass-augmentation dish, so to speak; one, or in essence most everything else you'd obviously not approve of. 

Truth be told I'm not on a mission to willfully oppose your views, but simply to recommend what I feel would be one heck of subwoofer pairing with a future main speaker acquisition the OP appears to have in mind. But you don't want to hear that, right? You're all over the place with your "my (sub-)way or the highway," and when a couple of guys have a few challenging thoughts on the matter you're choking on your morning smoothie. 

I'd actually let poster @mcreyn get off the hook here as he simply sided with my fondness for tapped horns, apart from delivering some very worthwhile info.

thewatcher101

They are 6 inches away from the wall,

You keep mentioning hardness in the lower midrange. This right here could be the reason. We all have room constraints so maybe this is forced, but if its not then you might want to try moving the speakers in a few feet from the side walls. 

Being so close to a side wall the critical first reflection arrives within a millisecond or so, well within the roughly 4 milliseconds within which the human ear perceives sound to be coming from the same source. What this means in plain English, its smearing and ruining your imaging.

But that's not all. That's so close the wall is practically acting like a horn, reflecting and reinforcing the speaker but not in a good way. I could never understand your comment trying to link sub placement with this low midrange hardness. Can't see it happening. What I can see happening though is the bass changes distract from hearing the reflection problem that is there all the time. Move the speakers and see.

While you're at it get them off the subs. You'll get better bass and improve imaging in one fell swoop.

phusis: "Truth be told I’m not on a mission to willfully oppose your views, but simply to recommend what I feel would be one heck of subwoofer pairing with a future main speaker acquisition the OP appears to have in mind. But you don’t want to hear that, right? You’re all over the place with your "my (sub-)way or the highway," and when a couple of guys have a few challenging thoughts on the matter you’re choking on your morning smoothie."

Hello phusis,
If I recall correctly, I stated that the interjection between you and mcreyn was no big deal and I meant it. I welcome new ideas, new information and actually found your discussion of horn tapping subs very interesting, thank you. My intent was not to dismiss or reject the idea of a different solution for watcher, I just thought, since he already committed to trying the 4-sub DBA concept by buying two more SVS subs, he should first give that concept a fair try before being asked to consider a solution that would be much more expensive and require utilizing much larger subs.
You are correct, I am an advocate of 4-sub DBA systems and I understand many likely prefer I’d just stop already. I think it’s an excellent solution for anyone who has the funds and room space. However, I’m not naïve or ignorant enough to think it’s the only or even the best solution. I understand each individual situation deserves an individual and unique solution based on the specific circumstances and preferences. I believe the best solution for a given individual system and room can span from a single sub or dual sub setup to a 3+ sub linear or distributed bass array setup to more elaborate and larger sub bass systems utilizing horn tapping or even larger horn based subs to something new or that I’ve never even heard of.
You stated "But you don’t want to hear that, right? You’re all over the place with your "my (sub-)way or the highway," and when a couple of guys have a few challenging thoughts on the matter you’re choking on your morning smoothie."
Wrong, I want to hear your discussion with mcreyn and all sorts of opinions, information and ideas from you guys or anyone else willing to share them. Who knows, I may even feel the urge to share some, too.


Later,
Tim

@thewatcher101, how do you like your Resonessence Mirus DAC? Ironically Resonessence shared a room with Audiokinesis at the Long Beach Audio Show where Duke from Audiokinesis was showing off his new two-way hybrid horns and Swarm array. Also ironically Duke set his monitors on top of two of the woofer boxes. I thought the room sounded decent Friday morning but by the afternoon it was sounding really good. Duke's rooms are generally among the best in sound at shows I have attended.

watcher,

Okay, speaker level connections should work well and daisy-chaining from one sub to the next is convenient, too.
When I positioned my four subs, I decided to just follow the suggested procedure and locate the subs to optimize the bass performance in my 23x16x8 foot room that serves as a living/music/HT room. My audio equipment, tv and main speakers are along a 16’ wall with my listening chair about 12’ back from the center of this 16’ wall. I decided my wife and I could then do any necessary furniture rearrangement afterward. Here’s the procedure, based on the ’crawl’ method, that I used to position each of my four subs:

1. Power down system, disconnect speaker wires from main speakers and remove them from the room.

2. Connect Sub#1, power up system, set sub#1’s volume to 50%, crossover frequency to 65 Hz with the phase set at in-phase (’0’) and place it on its back (driver facing the ceiling) at the normal listening position. Play music that has good and repetitive bass.

3. Walk slowly along the perimeter walls of the room, starting at the front right corner of the room and moving in a counter-clockwise direction, listening for the exact spot that the bass sounds best to you; not exaggerated, attenuated or missing bass but detailed, solid, smooth accurate and natural bass. Walk slowly enough and you’ll definitely notice the exact spot it sounds best.

4. Place Sub#1 at the exact position you determined the bass sounded best to you.

5. Connect Sub#2, set sub#2’s volume to 50%, crossover frequency to 65 Hz with the phase set at in-phase (’0’) and place it on its back (driver facing the ceiling) at the normal listening position. Play music again that has good and repetitive bass.

6. Continue to walk slowly along the perimeter walls of the room, starting now at Sub#1 and continue moving in a counter-clockwise direction, listening for the next exact spot that the bass sounds best to you.

7. Place Sub#2 at the exact position you determined the bass sounded best to you.

8. Repeat this procedure for Sub# 3 & 4.

9. Replay the same music with good and repetitive bass, sit in the designated listening seat and verify the bass does not sound exaggerated, attenuated or missing and that the bass does sound detailed, solid, smooth, accurate and natural.

10. If it does not, repeat steps 1-9. If it does, reinstall your JBL speakers, ideally on the floor or on custom stands and about 3-4’ away from the front 16’ wall. Obtain an assistant and proceed to the 4-sub Custom DBA Configuration and Seamless Main Speakers Integration Procedures.

Following this procedure in my room with the Swarm subs, it resulted in two subs located along the front 16’ wall, with sub#1 located 2’ away from the right corner and sub#2 located 2’ away from the left corner. The other two subs sounded best toward the rear of my room with sub#3 along the left 23’ wall and sub#4 along the right 23’ wall, both about 2’ away from the nearest rear corners formed by the 16’ rear wall.

I’m not suggesting you save some time by just positioning yours like mine. I’m suggesting that you follow the same subs positioning procedure and that your subs are likely to sound best in a similar distribution pattern. Your room is the same 16’ width and rectangular shape as mine but it’s 7’ longer and I’m uncertain if your ceiling height is similar to my 8’ ceiling. In any case, there are enough differences that your subs may sound best in somewhat different positions; perhaps with only one sub along the front 16’ wall and the remaining subs in different positions along your 30’ side walls and even one or more along your rear 16’ wall.

I’m just not sure where they’ll ultimately be positioned for best performance. I suggest you just trust and follow the procedure, position each in sequence exactly where it sounds best and everything will probably work out fine.

I was also mentioning the overall distribution pattern of my four subs to give you an example to plan how you’d be wiring and connecting your four subs. I think the speaker level connections and daisy-chaining capability will work well. You just need to determine exactly how you’d prefer to distribute the two shorter SB subs and two taller PB subs. Unfortunately, I have a lack of knowledge and experience concerning how best to deploy two sealed subs (with rated bass extension down to 24 Hz) and two ported subs (with rated bass extension down to 19 Hz) for best overall performance. Theoretically, I believe it should not make a significant difference but you’re the only scientist among us that’s currently capable of carrying out the required scientific experiments to obtain the empirical but very personal and subjective results. If you have a preference doctor, even if it’s based on the trivial idea of having the taller PB subs being located in certain areas near the seating and doubling as end tables, I’d suggest that’s a good layout variable to begin your experimentation with.

I also strongly suggest you invest in a good pair of speaker stands for your JBL 4319 main speakers and positioning them at least 2-4 feet away from the 16’ wall behind them. You can thank me later and I saw several suitable pairs starting at $85 by searching for "speaker stands" on eBay.

I’ll post the 4-sub Custom DBA Configuration and Seamless Main Speakers Integration Procedures once you complete the subs positioning phase of this project.

Later,

Tim