Have a Audio Research Ref 3 and am considering upgrading the fuses but I am a little skeptical. Would like to hear from people who have try this. Hard to believe that fuses can make a substantial difference like the manufacturers claim. All advice appreciated.
I upgraded the fuses in my MX-Rs to positive effect. How much you notice will, to a large extent, be determined by the resolution of the rest of your system. In my case, there were 10 fuses for a cost of $450, but I felt it was worth it.
They work, but it will depend on the resolution of your system to determine just how big an improvement you'll experience. Expect to be disappointed for the first few days as they, like anything, need some time to break in. I kept my system on for 4 straight days at a very low setting and from time to time would check in on it. It went from 'what the hell is going on here' to 'that's very nice indeed'.
"All advice appreciated." I think they are selling mass production fuses with gold(ish) plating on the ends & some fancy decals and packaging. That said, if you can just buy one fairly cheap & see if you think it makes a difference, what the heck.
Maybe with some makes but the HiFi Tuning fuses I use are made of ceramic instead of glass, to control resonance, use silver wire, and are cryo'd. It's not snake oil. There are enough reviews out there from 6moons, PFO, Stereophile, and Stereo Times, to name a few, that think very highly of them, not to mention enough testimonials from us average Joes (and Janes) to start a blog. Check out the other threads on this and go with a reputable make and you won't go wrong.
Nonoise - A quick search for something like "fuse construction" will show you that ceramic mass production fuses are very common, use of silver in fuses is not particularly uncommon, the value of cryo treatment and the validity of testimonials are probably things that we weigh very differently. It is a little off track, but I think that any audio product concept that appeals to audiophiles will eventually result in glowing testimonials of whatever product is developed. If you could develop convincing pseudo science suggesting that dried elephant dung absorbed emi, there would soon be much of it sold to audiophiles and history suggests that it would eventually be cryo treated and encased in silver mesh webbing by some of the more creative vendors. None of the above is relevant to the question at hand though, I'm sticking with 'if you are inclined to try it and it is cheap then what the heck'. Happy listening!
Point taken. But there are companies that did their homework and there are those that simply jumped on the bandwagon, diluting the process. And yes, there will be glowing testimonials from those that want to hear and then there are those that did hear a difference. Mine sounded simply horrible for the first few days. There was no getting used to the sound as it simply sucked. But it changed, dramatically, for the better. I didn't think a fuse could have that much effect. YMMV. In the end, 'if you are inclined to try it and it is cheap then what the heck' does apply.
I just replaced the fuses in my Perfect Wave DAC and PW transport with Hifi Tuning Supremes, which were created in cooperation with the famous Mundorf company, whose parts are used in some of the best audiophile gear in the world. Each of the four fuses cost $55, so the total upgrade set me back $220. I had a 100 percent money back guarantee and my dealer agreed to cover return shipping if I wasn't happy. No risk, nothing at stake.
I have replaced entire components that did not yield the kind of results I'm hearing from these fuses. I've been an audiophile for 20 years and this is the cheapest and most effective equipment upgrade I've ever made. High frequencies are smoother, yet there's no loss of detail. Bass is more melodic and there is a "liveness" to instruments that is truly startling. One warning: they take about 80-100 hours of playback before they are at their best. Take them out and put the old fuses back in. You won't be able to put the Hifi fuses back in quickly enough.
These fuses are a no brainer. I've yet to talk to a professional "tweaker" or "modifier" who disagrees. most audio designers will tell you, anything that affects electricity is part of an audio component's signal path. The folks at Conrad-Johnson are famous for saying that "all parts have a sound." But in the end, forget theory and listen for yourself. That's all that matters. I'm always amazed at people who scoff at something that they've never actually listened to themselves. With something this affordable and given that all dealers have a return policy, there's really no excuse for not learning the truth first hand.
I removed the Hi Fi tuning fuse from my Vac preamp while I had the Manley set up for a couple of weeks. I forgot about changing the fuse out when I inserted the Vac back into the system. After a few days listening something just didn't sound as I had remembered it. Aha, the fuse change! The Hi Fi fuse went back in and the difference was clearly noticeable and for the better.
The more resolving a system , the more likely a difference will be heard . I hope none of the good folks here with lower end gear will take issue with that , as I have always judged audiophile friends and club members by there passion not there parts .
I agree that system resolution is definitely at play when it comes to system changes of any kind. I own Thiel CS3.7's (highly resolving) and use a ton of Shunyata power conditioning. Sometimes I can hear things I wish I couldn't. ;-0
My system is very resolving. I and another freind who has a very resolving system both agreed that if we could have listened first, we would have spent the money on music instead. I'm not saying that they don't work, but in the two systems I heard, it wasn't that big of a tweek.
I can only attest to the use of Hifi Tuning Supreme fuses (not lesser iterations) sound in my DAC and transport. I will be installing one in my Classe' Delta 2200 amplifier over the weekend and others will be present to assess. If it fails to impress me, I have a paid return box and it will go back to Berlin.
I have little doubt that some designers of equipment have so dialed in their creations that changing fuses may fail to render an improvement or even harm the sound. Hifi tuning fuses can be found standard in some Lamm equipment and I'm sure they were selected from among many for a particular reason. System synergy could also be at work. Just as a 6922 tube is preferred by one person in one system but not in another system, it doesn't mean the 6922 doesn't work magic in some applications. FWIW.
BTW, spending money on music is always a good idea.
"The more resolving a system , the more likely a difference will be heard . "
This is one of the things that drives me crazy about audiophiles. Good design means resolving on the output side (where resolving is a good thing) and filtered on the power supply side (where filtering is a good thing). A poorly designed system will have high resolution in regard to ac line effects & compromised resolution in regard to desired output. A well designed system will be the opposite. This is true whether you are talking stereo's or tv's or any other electrical device whose purpose is to transmit a signal. It is basic electronics 101 stuff. Good equipment has improved immunity to incoming power issues or tweaks.
If you're not an audiophile, why do you hang out here? This is an audiophile website. If we "drive you crazy", you might consider going to a website more pleasing to you. Or, perhaps you enjoy ridiculing people. I hope not. There are so few places left for hobbyists to enjoy what they do. You'll notice that I am not attacking the beliefs you hold, merely the spirit and manner in which you have chosen to express them here.
Vhiner - I'm an audiophile and I did not intend any ridicule or remarks of a personal nature.
I actually can't find anything that could be construed as personal in my previous note. I do think the 'high resolution of the power supply' comments are out there and use of that type of logic to justify believing in tweaks or not believing in tweaks does drive me crazy. That is directed at the concept and not a particular person or persons however.
As regards "attacking the beliefs you hold", please attack away if so desired. I think that sharing differing views/experience/knowledge is an appropriate use of an audiophile website.
Thanks for the clarification. Clearly, exchanging views is what this site is for. I think it's possible to do that without characterizing another's views as "inducing craziness" but that horse is dead now.
I've never found hypothetical scenarios very interesting or productive. A few others have shared that they heard little or no difference in their systems after installing new fuses while others report major improvements. That's what this particular thread is for.
So far, you have made a hypothetical argument based upon your understanding of engineering principles. I, for one, am far more interested in sticking to the OP's original request, which was to hear from "people who have TRIED this." If you have, share the details of your experience. If not, I don't think theoretical musings about what "should work" and "should not work" to be very helpful. JMTC.
"I've never found hypothetical scenarios very interesting or productive"
Filtering out noise on the input side of stereo equipment is very basic stuff. My guess is that some of your own equipment has ac line noise immunity/voltage tolerance specifications either in the manuals in or available from the manufacturer. It is what it is and there is no need to accept my word for this, a quick bit of research will allow anyone to confirm.
Personally, I think you need to look at the science on tweak threads like this as well as the listening test reports. If you only consider the latter then the only answer you'll ever come up with is "spend the money", placebo effects and the occasional shill tend to always push the testimonials toward the plus side.
The fuse will make no difference to the audio; however, it will make a difference to your billfold.
A fuse is a safety device that lies in series in a circuit between an electrical source and its associated load(s). When the current, or flow of electricity, exceeds its designed threshold, the fuse opens.
How can one 2 amp fuse differ from another, assuming they are both designed for your circuit?
How can a power cord make a difference? It does. How can interconnects make a difference? They do. I don't mean to be snide but this have been discussed to death already. Some of us hear big differences that we can't put into words, but they are there. Maybe its just a matter of being better built: that justification seems to apply to all things audio. Or it could be that there is something else at play here. I've replaced fuses on circuit boards that gave bigger results than the one I replaced on the slide out on the IEC jack but there were still improvements. I simply can't explain why I hear a difference but I do.
Have you ever noticed how the "this can't work" crowd never talk about actually trying the products they denigrate? It really is unbelievably boring and pointless. It's like hanging out at a car collector convention just to nag everybody about how "one car is just as good as another, quit wasting your money." It's sad. YAWN.
Have you ever noticed how the "this______absolutely makes a difference!" or "this________makes a huge difference" crowd never provides substantiated, or independant 3rd party verification, or scientific before-and-after data for any of their improvement gains?
"It really is unbelievably boring and pointless" is my sentiments exactly! It's no different than anyone claiming they can read minds, predict the future, move objects telepathically, etc, etc... If you claim you can hear the difference with fuses, or that a specific fuse direction is audible, back it up with data! It's ahould be an easy thing to measure for those with conventional lab equipment, yet neither of the exotic fuse companies provide a single explanation to the best of my knowledge, nor data to back up their claims. Show me a non-audio related scientific, engineering or accredited university research process that would accept known-unreliable sensory perception to out weigh extensive reserch and measurements. As Jeff stated, they'd pull their degrees and be subjected to endless industry ridicule.
I rest my case. These guys may have gone to the same engineering school as the cable supervisor who kept claiming my internet problems "can't be your modem. I've measured it twice and my instruments don't lie." Two weeks of labor, complete wire replacement and countless service calls later, guess what the lowly "cable user" insisted they do? Yup. We replaced the modem and suddenly we're getting 30 megabytes per second. Problem fixed. The supervisor's response? "I think it's a conincidence...or my instruments were malfunctioning that day." True story. Engineers who are promoted to to be designers will tell you that there's a difference between theory and practice.
P.S. In addition to being an award-winning editor and journalist, Robert Harley is a respected engineer who has addressed this tired,old debate countless times. John Atkinson provides countless measurements of audiophile products. It doesn't matter because this debate is clearly not about science.
Trust your own ears and don't believe the slander that every hard-working audio enthusiast who invents a way to improve audio reproduction is trying to rip you off or that people who joyfully share their discoveries are deluded.
So, your actual rebuttal is comparing your inept cable supervisor diagnostic story to what? Are you kidding me?
Pick any industry and I can promise you, in many situations, Joe Schmo may have more knowledge about a particual technology than a so-called supervisor. What do you know about being a service technician anyway. I've been doing it for 37 years, in a wide spectrum of electronics. Mistakes get made, or new equipment comes out, and we're not given adequate time or training to learn everything, or for the special test equipment to diagnose said equipment. In that 37 years, and I'm sure fellow tech readers can attest to, there's good ones, and not so good, or just lazy types showing up for a paycheck.
What does this have to do with anyone proving what they claim to hear? Which month's magazine article did RH or JA address this fuse issue will measureable results? These are payed magazine reviewers, correct? And why isn't this debate about science? By that, I can only assume your limited understanding is more along the lines of magic since you lack any plauseable technical explanation? Merely claiming that you hear something, is not evidence that something is audible for various psychological, sociological, and well-understood unreliability of human hearing. And THAT has been discussed to no end except "audiophiles" unwillingness to accept that fact. Back up YOUR claims my friend!
Heh, heh, heh! My response was no rebuttal, but it achieved the desired result. I hear what I hear. You can't prove I don't and i don't feel the need to prove that i do . If it works, it works. This is a fact that drives some service technicians crazy.
I simply object to this thread's original purpose being hijacked. The request was for opinions from those who have actually tried high end fuses. Several here have admitted to never doing so and are proud they never will. That's called crashing a party. It speaks for itself. Some people have to express their opinions even when no one asked for them. They wouldn't last ten minutes on a loosely moderated thread because all of this B.S. is off topic. They'd be asked to start their own thread. Sadly, an engineering degree doesn't always enhance one's social skills.
A buddy of mine is coming over on Saturday for a listening session. There will be beer and lots of great music. At some point, we'll take out the tin stock fuse of my amp and replace it with a hifi tuning fuse. He's never heard one and isn't longing for one. We'll listen and discuss what we do and don't hear. If the fuse makes me happy, I'll keep it. If it doesn't, I'll exchange it for some MoFi recordings I've had my eye on. I love this hobby and no one can ruin it for me. Why would they want to try? Draw your own conclusions.
Every thing in "electronics" is controlled by these formulas. Electrons "obey" these laws in this universe. If your box was not imported from Krypton, it obeys these laws; but maybe the fuse is from "Krypton".
A beer, fuse listening party sounds like a very good idea. After enough beers those fuses might sound like "fuses from Krypton".
AMPS= WATTS÷VOLTS I = P ÷ E A = W ÷ V WATTS= VOLTS x AMPS P = E x I W = V x A VOLTS= WATTS ÷ AMPS E = P ÷ I V = W ÷ A
...And your "achieved desired result" only illustrates that you or anyone can make outlandish claims and not have to back them up. The onus of proof ALWAYS falls on persons making the claims, NOT the other way around. Your unwillingness to prove YOUR claims merely lumps you in with the "empty credibility" bunch, which you clearly seem to be at ease with. But I'm sure you're okay with fortune tellers ripping people off as well.
As far as you "objecting to this thread's original purpose being hijacked", the OP's entire context was being addressed by several based on his general skepticism and leariness to believe that fuses can make a substantial difference like the manufacturers claim. What "rational" person would exclude a comprehensive range of input, especially regarding pseudo science? I'd hope the OP would require factual data over empty, unproven claims. Since no one seems to be backing up their audible claims, nor by the mfrs, he owes it to himself to gather as much "unbiased" info as possible.
Have fun Saturday. You should ask someone with test equipment to come over. That would have more bearing to the OP and others. Every audible claim i've read, regarding fuses, IS measureable!
Actually for me the better way to determine rather than test equipment is to swap or not swap fuses and see if people can tell the difference. If test equipment doesn't show a change people will say it's not sensitive enough, etc. I would agree. Of course people will say they need time (hours or days), which may be valid unless they just said they heard a difference. I was at a dealer's open house a while ago. He played some music and everyone liked it, oooh and aaaah. Then he showed us a CD mat that he put on top of the CD he just played. Much better...to everyone except me. I wasn't familiar with the system or the track he was playing, and I suspect others weren't either. I would have LOVED to do a blind test then. I would have been very impressed if others could tell the difference. Either way I would have learned a lot about my hearing, tweak's effectiveness, how people act in that environment, etc.
Thank God more people listen with their ears than with their test equipment. Even though the "fortune teller/magic/rip off" argument is in NO way applicable to what is going on here, it's helpful to consider that most secure people don't waste our time going on "fortune telling" websites trying to convince people who gather there that they are deluded. Yet some posters here are like all moral crusaders. They feel it is their moral duty rid the world of sin and protect us from ourselves. We leave them alone, but they can't leave us alone. We don't need their help and no one asked for it.
Again, this thread has been hijacked and it now belongs to those who claim to know THE TRUTH. Nothing I or anyone else says will keep them from taking over the conversation.
Just more of the same ol' classic evasion tactics regarding your unwillingness to support your touted claims, and it most certainly does equate to fotune teller antics in similar ways, or any other extrasensory claims humans having been making since speaking man, yet consistently fail when tested. You just can't differentiate betwen that either. And spare us the whole thread hijacking nonsense. It's not your thread or forum to regulate what suits your beliefs only. I've already addressed that point.
I swear, it's like I'm conversing with 5 year old. Your rational is predictable and sterotypical, without merit.
I am selling anti-gravity boots. Put them on and you can jump off a tall building without falling. If you don't believe they work buy them and try them out. If they don't work I offer full refund.
Since Monty Python seems to have calmed things down a bit, let's try this: you guys think you've stimbled upon the room designated for "an argument." You're mistaken. That's the third door down the hall.
Nonoise - For what is worth, the measurements and theory crowd (me included) would need to agree that interconnects can indeed make a measurable difference. In the non-audio world as well, you need to be aware of cable issues that can cause unacceptable attenuation when you want precise transmission of sensitive signals.
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