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Searching for matching(?) Subwoofer solution

Hi folks,

I have a relatively new setup in my home office (12' x 14' with hardwood floor) and am seeking recommendations for a subwoofer solution.

Speakers: Ologe 5
Preamp:    Bryston P26 
Amp:         Forte 1A
Budget:     Flexible but just want something to provide a good match for the above components.
Music:       Mostly Classical and Jazz.  Some rock, some fusion.
Source:     Well, that's something else I am seeking advice on too and will post under the appropriate discussion topic

Problem is none of the local Hi Fi shops here in the Boston area have any experience with, let alone heard of Ologe speakers.  Couldn't get any recommendations there.

Has anyone owned or at least listened to these speakers? Or any of the other Ologe speakers?
The Ologe site (http://www.ologe-acoustic.com/) features a subwoofer called Ologe 20 at USD $8550.  
Just wanted to look into alternatives before dropping over 8 grand on the Ologe 20.
 I am open to but don't know much about subwoofer swarms.

I am not looking for anything overkill.  Just a subwoofer solution to nicely complement my somewhat modest home office system.

Thanks,
H
hleeid
audiokinesis
2,737 posts
 

Tyray wrote:

"When your Swarm first came out I and bunch of others were impressed at such a brilliant thinking out of the box idea. I completely believed and understood the science behind it."

Thank you very much. If there was any "brilliant" thinking on my part, it was in quickly recognizing the merit of the distributed multi-sub concept when Earl Geddes described it to me, and in immediately asking him if I could license his idea (he replied, "No, you can just use it," so I try to give him credit when the opportunity arises).

I also appreciate the Richard Vandersteen quote you posted above:

"... multiple subs automatically give a linier response in the room. This should be amazing as we have always been a supporter of multiple subs."

Indeed, I recall Richard recommending stereo subs long before I heard about using four distributed subs from Earl. Was Richard the first to propose that two subs are significantly better than one? I think he was.

I have always liked Richard’s speakers very much, and feel honored that a few of his customers have chosen my somewhat unorthodox little subwoofer system to go with them.

Duke

millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Up until some time nearly a year ago I had never heard of using more than one or two subs. All my personal experience was based on one sub, plus maybe once or twice hearing two somewhere. Based on all that it seemed getting really good smooth articulate bass, by which I mean bass every bit as good as the midrange and treble, was for whatever reason impossible.

I still think this is the case. My current understanding is the reason this is impossible is, briefly, what Duke stated above. Its a natural physical consequence of the physical character of house-sized rooms. 

The DBA idea seemed at first unlikely to work. But a lot of the threads I came across were like this one, where if you could somehow wade through the BS and sniping there were mentioned real research articles and work by guys like Geddes, which anyone interested can scroll up and see yes indeed once again he's mentioned. The question is will you dear reader take time out of your busy day opining and parroting and go and look it up and read it and actually try and understand what its all about.

Which I did. Which whatever it is, it sure ain't religion. 

Duke at one point when I said I was going to do this he thanked me for having faith. My reply was I had read enough and understood enough to know for certain and without doubt its going to work. This really is no different than someone teaches you math. You can then determine how many oranges each of 6 people can get if you have 24 oranges. Its not faith and it sure ain't religion. Its physics.

And psycho-acoustics. Humans do not perceive sounds anything like the meters so many wanna-be audiophiles put so much faith in. Which yes that is exactly the correct use of the term. Or maybe like Stevie Wonder said its superstition- when you believe in things you don't understand.

We don't perceive volume equally flat, go look up Fletcher-Munson curve. We don't perceive location equally with frequency either. We are really good at localizing midrange and treble. We can hear even just a millisecond snippet. At low bass frequencies we can't even hear them AT ALL until and unless its a full wavelength. At 20 Hz that means 1/20th of a second. 

The full range of sounds we are trying to create is so different in physics and perception it simply cannot be faithfully recreated with just the one approach. No two speakers can do it. No two speakers with any sub however good can do it. Two good speakers with four or more subs? No problem!

I've been using mine for a good six months now. One of the most amazing things I am still getting used to is the way really low powerful bass can present so many different ways. Sometimes its the low acoustic of the recording venue. In that case its so diffuse as to be completely unlocalizable. It is enveloping. It is what people mean when they talk about good bass expanding the sound stage to completely envelope you. Other times it is so precisely localized within the sound stage its every bit as palpably solidly there as the singer or drum or whatever. 

Never, ever, does it sound like the bass is coming from any of the five subs in my room. Often times early on I would walk right up to one and not believe it was even working until I put my finger on the driver.

There's a lot going on here that is very new and very different. Its a lot to get your head around. People interested will be well served to avoid the silly comments from people who haven't tried it and therefore haven't a clue, and instead read those who have and those who did the very impressive pioneering research that made this most revolutionary discovery in audio in many years.
noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
Hello Duke,

     I'm glad you chimed in and shared your knowledge. 
     If you don't mind and have the time, I was hoping to get your honest opinion on my thoughts on how I understand multiple sub systems function in general as well as my understanding of how bass is recorded on CDs and vinyl.  Basically, I'm asking if you agree with my summary below?    
     
       We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 100 Hz but we're very good at localizing higher frequency soundwaves in the remainder of the audible spectrum, from about 100 to 20,000 Hz.
    This is the reason there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass and why the bass is summed to mono on frequencies below 100 Hz on all vinyl and cd recordings. If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd recording that is not summed to mono. This means it's pointless to configure subs in a stereo configuration with one located by the left main speaker and one by the right.
    However, thanks to psychoacoustics and our remarkable brains, it is possible to create the perception of stereo bass in our systems. Here's how it works:
    Whether you use 2, 3 or 4 subs, run them in mono and optimize the bass at your listening seat. The bass below 100 Hz won't be able to be localized but there are bass harmonics or overtones of the deep bass fundamental frequencies that extend into higher frequencies that are reproduced by the main stereo speakers and can be localized. Our brains are able to associate the fundamental deep bass frequencies reproduced by the subs, that are not able to be localized, with the deep bass's higher harmonic frequencies, that extend well beyond 100 Hz, which are reproduced by the main speakers that are able to be localized. This psychoacoustic association allows us to localize the deep bass in the soundstage, for example the kick drum is located in the rear center and the upright bass is located in the front to the left, which would not be otherwise possible without this psychoacoustic association our brain's are capable of.  


Thanks,
Tim
tyray
582 posts
 

@millercarbon


I completely understand you and appreciate everything you have to say.

But I have to respond to someone who actually has the swarm system and understands it and has a working knowledge of it and basically calls my a lier - without himself doing his own research - I’m going to take up for myself whether you or no one else does. He does the op, this thread and even Duke a disservice. Let me remind you of the lie Tim posted about me:

’I seriously doubt someone as knowledgeable and experienced as Mr. Vandersteen would make the numerous obviously false statements contained in your supposed quote of him you cited above in your last post.

Please verify this quote as valid by referencing your source for this quote. I’m almost certain you’ll be unable to do so, however, and you’ll likely just fail to ever provide any reference, never admitting to your deliberate false quote ...’

What am I supposed to do? I thought we are here to share ideas from one another? In a respectful courteous manner? Am I missing something here? Not make up vicious lies.

This is a small snippet of what I’m calling psycho bass bable bullshit:

’Hello cleeds,

Very interesting that you responded before tyray and that the supposed direct quote from Mr. Vandersteen is actually from his website’s promotional information for the 2W subwoofers.

I read the linked website info and it reads more like the work of a professional advertising copy writer promoting a client’s product that he doesn’t completely understand, which is actually the case, than a knowledgeable and experienced speaker designer sharing his expertise on how his subs are able to take advantage of his knowledge of speaker design and how bass soundwaves behave in a typical home room environment to provide high quality bass reproduction.

The quote from the Vandersteen website referred to by tyray and yourself, listed below, contains too many errors for me to believe that Mr. Vandersteen would vouch for its accuracy. It seems much more likely the numerous errors are the result of an advertising copy writer plying his trade on a subject and product he has a general lack of knowledge about. I seriously doubt Mr. Vandersteen even scrutinized the content of this promotional quote since I doubt he would approve this much misinformation. I’ll explain the errors and my reasoning below after the advertising quote.’ And he goes on and on and on... And you quoted Stevie Wonder?

-Not the science behind the swarm.

And apparently I guess this type of interaction with someone on this thread is okay - if you have the swarm and have read the studies of Earl Geddes. Well I’m here to tell you it’s not.

I did look up this term though:

Psychoacoustic Phenomenon Psuedo Stereo Deep Bass

Apparently it does not exist. Especially when Pseudo is spelled wrong.

I really wanted to ask is this psychoacoustic phenomenon only in playback and the recording studio environment? But I guess I can’t cause I don’t have the Swarm and haven’t fully read the studies of Earl Geddes. 











clio09
3,354 posts
 
There is more than one way to implement a multi-sub system. For a long time the idea of using any sub in my system wasn't an option. Didn't see the need for them and systems I heard that had a sub(s) in them were not to my liking.

The idea of the distributed bass array made sense to me. It certainly had some science and research behind it. Whether one agrees with it or not is another matter. Since I work with someone who also makes speakers I ran the idea past him. He agreed in principle and actually read Geddes work and supported it. So I figured at that point what did I have to lose. With his help I was able to put together my own array and it has made a significant difference in my room and my system. I should also note that while I do use 4 speakers in my array, my friend just uses 2.

Since this topic has been popular around here of late I have learned even more. I have tweaked my array with the assistance of another member here, mijostyn, to leverage the specific type of speaker I use. Again, a marked improvement. It's good to have options and I would also agree with Raul that quality trumps quantity. It is unfortunate that around here we sometimes have to sift through some unpleasant minutiae to get value from what is posted, but that's what filters are for.

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