Searching for matching(?) Subwoofer solution

Hello Duke,

     I'm glad you chimed in and shared your knowledge. 
     If you don't mind and have the time, I was hoping to get your honest opinion on my thoughts on how I understand multiple sub systems function in general as well as my understanding of how bass is recorded on CDs and vinyl.  Basically, I'm asking if you agree with my summary below?    
     
       We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 100 Hz but we're very good at localizing higher frequency soundwaves in the remainder of the audible spectrum, from about 100 to 20,000 Hz.
    This is the reason there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass and why the bass is summed to mono on frequencies below 100 Hz on all vinyl and cd recordings. If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd recording that is not summed to mono. This means it's pointless to configure subs in a stereo configuration with one located by the left main speaker and one by the right.
    However, thanks to psychoacoustics and our remarkable brains, it is possible to create the perception of stereo bass in our systems. Here's how it works:
    Whether you use 2, 3 or 4 subs, run them in mono and optimize the bass at your listening seat. The bass below 100 Hz won't be able to be localized but there are bass harmonics or overtones of the deep bass fundamental frequencies that extend into higher frequencies that are reproduced by the main stereo speakers and can be localized. Our brains are able to associate the fundamental deep bass frequencies reproduced by the subs, that are not able to be localized, with the deep bass's higher harmonic frequencies, that extend well beyond 100 Hz, which are reproduced by the main speakers that are able to be localized. This psychoacoustic association allows us to localize the deep bass in the soundstage, for example the kick drum is located in the rear center and the upright bass is located in the front to the left, which would not be otherwise possible without this psychoacoustic association our brain's are capable of.  


Thanks,
Tim

@millercarbon

I completely understand you and appreciate everything you have to say.

But I have to respond to someone who actually has the swarm system and understands it and has a working knowledge of it and basically calls my a lier - without himself doing his own research - I’m going to take up for myself whether you or no one else does. He does the op, this thread and even Duke a disservice. Let me remind you of the lie Tim posted about me:

’I seriously doubt someone as knowledgeable and experienced as Mr. Vandersteen would make the numerous obviously false statements contained in your supposed quote of him you cited above in your last post.

Please verify this quote as valid by referencing your source for this quote. I’m almost certain you’ll be unable to do so, however, and you’ll likely just fail to ever provide any reference, never admitting to your deliberate false quote ...’

What am I supposed to do? I thought we are here to share ideas from one another? In a respectful courteous manner? Am I missing something here? Not make up vicious lies.

This is a small snippet of what I’m calling psycho bass bable bullshit:

’Hello cleeds,

Very interesting that you responded before tyray and that the supposed direct quote from Mr. Vandersteen is actually from his website’s promotional information for the 2W subwoofers.

I read the linked website info and it reads more like the work of a professional advertising copy writer promoting a client’s product that he doesn’t completely understand, which is actually the case, than a knowledgeable and experienced speaker designer sharing his expertise on how his subs are able to take advantage of his knowledge of speaker design and how bass soundwaves behave in a typical home room environment to provide high quality bass reproduction.

The quote from the Vandersteen website referred to by tyray and yourself, listed below, contains too many errors for me to believe that Mr. Vandersteen would vouch for its accuracy. It seems much more likely the numerous errors are the result of an advertising copy writer plying his trade on a subject and product he has a general lack of knowledge about. I seriously doubt Mr. Vandersteen even scrutinized the content of this promotional quote since I doubt he would approve this much misinformation. I’ll explain the errors and my reasoning below after the advertising quote.’ And he goes on and on and on... And you quoted Stevie Wonder?

-Not the science behind the swarm.

And apparently I guess this type of interaction with someone on this thread is okay - if you have the swarm and have read the studies of Earl Geddes. Well I’m here to tell you it’s not.

I did look up this term though:

Psychoacoustic Phenomenon Psuedo Stereo Deep Bass

Apparently it does not exist. Especially when Pseudo is spelled wrong.

I really wanted to ask is this psychoacoustic phenomenon only in playback and the recording studio environment? But I guess I can’t cause I don’t have the Swarm and haven’t fully read the studies of Earl Geddes. 

There is more than one way to implement a multi-sub system. For a long time the idea of using any sub in my system wasn't an option. Didn't see the need for them and systems I heard that had a sub(s) in them were not to my liking.

The idea of the distributed bass array made sense to me. It certainly had some science and research behind it. Whether one agrees with it or not is another matter. Since I work with someone who also makes speakers I ran the idea past him. He agreed in principle and actually read Geddes work and supported it. So I figured at that point what did I have to lose. With his help I was able to put together my own array and it has made a significant difference in my room and my system. I should also note that while I do use 4 speakers in my array, my friend just uses 2.

Since this topic has been popular around here of late I have learned even more. I have tweaked my array with the assistance of another member here, mijostyn, to leverage the specific type of speaker I use. Again, a marked improvement. It's good to have options and I would also agree with Raul that quality trumps quantity. It is unfortunate that around here we sometimes have to sift through some unpleasant minutiae to get value from what is posted, but that's what filters are for.

Hello millercarbon,

     Very good post, well worded, sincere and I definitely know it's honest and accurate.  I think Duke helping you with advise even though he knew you were building a DIY clone of his 4-sub Audio Kinesis Swarm system was unexpected, unselfish,says a lot about his priorities and was just very cool.

Enjoy,
Tim   

Dear @audiokinesis  : What you posted was exactly this that I pasted from other thread:

"""  """ You can get good bass in one sweet spot with two equalized subs """

the words: not 3-4 but 2 were only to emphasis that you talks of two subs. In the same way the word " enough " that for the 99% of good low bass range at one seat position with high quality levels is enough.

I don't care about HT needs.

For two channels systems dedicated to listen only MUSIC the name of the game is QUALITY all over the room/system frequency range.

To other gentleman I posted in this thread:

"""  Example: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615 

do you think that the owner of this two channels room/system could " live " with 2-4 or what ever number of subs you name it of Rythmik subwoofers/DBs instead those self powered/active subwoofers towers that can go down to 3hz with almost no distortion levels at full power? """

that's top quality level in a dream dedicated MUSIC room/system. Obviously that only a few gentlemans ca own and enjoyb that quality levels but other audiophiles can do it some steps down with optimal quality levels that gentlemans like noble can't even imagine what really means quality. I already posted here that his attituted is a " robotic " one because he has a tatoos of number 4 and one model by SVS that even is not a true subwoofer.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.