Stylus-Drag..Fact or Fiction?

Dear @mikelavigne  @phoenixengr :  """  measurements are important. and i do agree there is a relationship with turntable performance between measurements and performance. but no matter the measurements the final arbiter is our ears.  """

yes, that's true but depends the ears of who and I mean the expertise of those " ears ".
Trhough the years your " ears " were exposed to the best of the best audio systems other than your own " dream " system so the validity of your opinions are different of the validity of mines.

In the other side the ears of any one of us were exposed to live events in many different ways that made it that each one of us be biased in different way.
When I attend to live music events ( I do often. ) I like to seat at near field position, not always but around 75% of times and when I seated 5 rows back the experience is really different and if I go 10 rows back even more different.

Maybe that's why for me the attack/transient response is so critical and the reproduction in a home audio system tell me a lot of that system. I remember that you posted/told me that overcthe time your home seat position listening to your system " bit by bit " get closer/near fierld to the speakers and that's a good thing for me but normally people do not listen at nearfield position so are biased in different way and with different sound/music reproduction priorities.

All those is full of sujectivity more than objetivity/measurements. But as you said measurements are important.

A problem with measurements is that are not in precise way measuring what we " listen " to tell us why we are listening what we listening. This is very complicated to do it because in a scientific way/explanation everything we listen can be measured IF we know what and how measure it and till now I don't know any mathematic model that can do that. So we have to trust in our " challenged " ears and that's why the learning ladder of our ears is a very long one with " hundreds " of steps/treads.

In his first post to you Phoenic posted:

""" 
and makes you a hobbyist, not a designer   """

and that's what you posted in your wide explanation about: we are hobbyst/audiophiles and certainly not designers but the technical knowledge levels of gentlemans like Phoenix always are welcomed because is good road for all of us to stay growing-up.

R.

lewm
As a (biological) scientist myself, I think that...

>>>>I’m sensing an big old Appeal to Authority coming up. 

jtimothya, let me explain it to you as carefully as I can. Unless you are a Martian you are bound by the same rules of human physiology the rest of us are. I shall state it again. Our brains are very sensitive to volume and phase. This information tells us where something is like that lion sneaking up behind us. Nature had no need for us to have perfect pitch and timing so without training the vast majority of us do not. How many drummers like Dave Weckyl do you know. Now try sitting down at a drum set and play like Dave. Right. Perfect pitch might even be rarer. Very few singers can hit a perfect middle C with accompaniment. 
Now in regard to turntables, speed inaccuracies, wow and flutter only affect two things in music, pitch and tempo. Now since the vast majority of us are pitch and tempo stupid the very minor variations seen in high performance turntable is totally inaudible. So, if you hear a difference between two high performance tables it has nothing to do with speed inaccuracies. Different cartridges, arms, cables, setups maybe but not speed inaccuracies. 
Lewm, you are so darn politically correct! 
Phoenix, thanx for your input as I only know the very superficial aspects of motors and motor control. The only suggestion I have for your position is that you forgot cannabis blood level. 
It is difficult to correlate opinions in terms of sound quality in regards to any piece of Hi FI equipment. Perception is personal. Nobody can see or hear exactly the same things you do without occupying your space. People do not have a very good understanding of how their psychological state at any given time can modify their behavior and perception. When you are happy you can bound up a flight of stairs two steps at a time but when you are unhappy every step is misery. Same heart, same muscles.
Perception also modifies behavior. Just watch what happens when a teenage boy sees his "girlfriend" kissing another boy. Fireworks. 
Those that argue that their perceptions a paramount without understanding their own weaknesses are at best difficult to listen to as are those that come up with wacky explanations to justify their mythology.
I love to learn ways to improve the performance of my system and I also love to try new stuff. Some of It I learned about here. But, I also like truth in advertising and like real explanations for why something should sound better not mindless hyperbole
Mikelevigne, I am truly jealous. I which I had as much money as you have to spend on Hi Fi equipment.   
 

I have not run from lions but I can hear pitch variations like no tomorrow.   It is the variation that is the problem.   Weather the pitch is correct to a tuning fork or not is not that important.   But the band needs to tune to themselves.  Kind of blue ,Miles Davis album, is off speed by a mile.  But the whole band was off and the pitch did not vary.   Lots and lots of singers can not hold a note with stable pitch.  Not sure how many people can hear that?...


Enjoy the ride
Tom

Mikelevigne, I am truly jealous. I which I had as much money as you have to spend on Hi Fi equipment.

hard to know how to react to that. might be a compliment, or something else.

i would only say that it’s taken me many years to assemble my system and most of the pieces have been resident for almost a decade. i’m not a rich guy, just relentless, and old enough for that to matter.

and when i built my room and first moved into it 15 years ago i had expensive gear, but the room sounded like crap. over another 10 years it was not much better. then after learning and making many mistakes i did figure out how to get the room to work. and getting the room to work was almost free in terms of dollars, although it took literally 9 months of constant effort to complete (details on the my system page comments down 10 or so posts if you are interested).

finally my expensive gear could really work properly. and likely a few levels less gear would be quite effective.....as well.

my point being that throwing money at it is not what works. working at it is what works. we can all do that. i feel better about the system/room tuning progress i’ve made than having shiny toys. not that i don’t like my toys. i certainly do. and work 6 days a week for many years to have them.

hope that does not come off as too defensive, but felt i needed to respond.