Subwoofers and Phase Question For You Sub Experts


I use a pair of Dunlavy SC-3 speakers, known for their time/phase coherent crossover design.

When the stars align the speakers completely disappear and there’s a sense of space and 3 dimensionality that I’ve heard from few other speakers/systems. It’s easy to destroy the illusion with things like poor placement, poor setup of room treatments, etc.

Adding subs to the setup is both a blessing and a curse. The Dunlavy’s need some support in the nether regions and a pair of HSU subs do add a solid foundation to music which enhances the overall presentation; however, it’s at the expense of some stage depth, width and image dimensionality. Placing the subs a few inches forward of the front plane of the speakers helps a little but that isn’t where they perform at their best as ‘subwoofers’.
Finding optimal room positions for bass augmentation always creates a clash with the phase aspect of integration resulting in the diminished soundstage described above.
Playing with phase settings has little impact on the problem since there’s just a toggle for 0 and 180.

Which brings me to the questions - 
1/ How does running a swarm setup, with 4 subs, affect phase/time integration with the mains? Does it create twice or half the issue or remove it altogether?

2/ Looking at subs such as the JL Audio F series with auto room calibration, does the EQ algorithm compensate for any time/phase anomaly or is it simply looking for a more linear bass response?

I don’t mind investing in more sophisticated subs so long as I don’t end up with the same problem. I’m not really inclined to mess with software and the like, unless there’s no other way.

Thanks

Rooze


128x128rooze
     The truth is that the 4-sub Distributed Bass Array (DBA) Concept actually works like a proverbial charm!  There are no ifs ands or buts, no maybes, no under the right conditions, no excuses, no fear and loathing, no terms, no conditions, no stipulations, no hidden clauses, no fine print, no oils and no qualifiers whatsoever.  
      It's the cat's pajamas, the bee's knees, good as gold, tits, right as rain and too legit to quit.  I believe it's the gold standard of sub systems that all others should be judged against.  
     Based on the 4-sub DBA's near state of the art bass quality, I actually continue to be amazed that it isn't more widely known, accepted and utilized, especially by fellow Audiogon members who are typically keenly aware and accepting of high quality audio related concepts, technology and methods they can utilize to increase the performance of their systems.  Heck, the main reasons we're all members is that we enjoy good music, realize high quality audio equipment, technology, concepts and methods are capable of increasing our systems performance and musical enjoyment as well as enjoying learning of, discussing and sharing this information, Right?
     The very relevant and utilitarian concept of the 4-sub DBA isn't exactly new, either.  I believe it's about ten years old and began as a spark of an idea that Duke Lejeune, owner of Audio Kinesis, had while having a conversation with his friend,Dr. Earl Geddes, about the results of the doctor's research and experiments on in-room bass performance in smaller room environments. Dr. Geddes stated that his research indicated to him that 4 well distributed subs in a room reliably provided the best in-room bass response performance regardless of the small room's dimensions or main speakers utilized.  This knowledge was the impetus for Duke creating his 4-sub Swarm DBA system that has won multiple product of the year awards (2015 and 2019):
2015:
 https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/
2019:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2019-golden-ear-awards-robert-e-greene/

     
      
       I've utilized an Audio Kinesis Debra/Swarm 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system for about 4 years now with a pair of Magnepan 2.7 QR main speakers.  I use my system both for 2-ch music and for 5.4 ch surround sound for HT.  I now use it with a pair of Magnepan 3.7i main speakers with equally excellent results, I just needed to adjust the volume and crossover frequency controls on the sub amp/control unit a bit.


Kenjit,
To paraphrase your post in another thread:
I refuse to engage with you unless you can prove to me it would be worth my time.




Rooze, it is a complex issue. Properly set up subs should improve sound stage and clarity. Speakers that benefit most from subs have woofers that run up higher above 500 Hz. Full range speakers like ESLs benefit most.
Ideally the sound from the sub should reach the listening position at exactly the same time and at exactly the same phase angle as the woofers in the satellite speakers. Subs work best against a wall and better right in corners. This is usually not going to be time or phase correct. Some woofers like the JL Audio have adjustable phase angle which helps but this does not correct the time issue. In most cases you would have to delay the satellite approximately 0.3 milliseconds each millisecond being equivalent to about 1 foot. This can only be done digitally. So in order to put subs in the places they work best and integrate them to the satellites you have to have digital bass management. If all your sources are digital this is not difficult. A dBx DriveRack will do the job. Digital room control processors like TACT, Anthem and Trinnov units will do the job for you. If you are into analog only and unwilling to digitize your turntable it is probably best to avoid the subwoofer altogether. Doing a swarm system would be the best way to go with an analog system. 

Ideally the sound from the sub should reach the listening position at exactly the same time and at exactly the same phase angle as the woofers in the satellite speakers.
Which is not possible with the duke le june swarm technology 
Noble100 wrote: "This knowledge was the impetus for Duke creating his 4-sub Swarm DBA system that has won multiple product of the year awards (2015 and 2019):"

Just to clarify, the Swarm only received a single Product of the Year award, for 2015, from The Absolute Sound magazine.  It has also received three Golden Ear awards and three Editor's Choice awards, including one of each in 2019.  So apparently the concept has a decent shelf life. 

And as I have said before, my product is definitely not the only way that the distributed multisub concept can be employed.  And results can be further improved with EQ and bass trapping.  Nor is a distributed multisub system  necessarily the most practical solution for most people... if it were, I'd be sitting in my corner office smoking a cigar while my minions did all the work. 

Duke