Subwoofers and Phase Question For You Sub Experts


I use a pair of Dunlavy SC-3 speakers, known for their time/phase coherent crossover design.

When the stars align the speakers completely disappear and there’s a sense of space and 3 dimensionality that I’ve heard from few other speakers/systems. It’s easy to destroy the illusion with things like poor placement, poor setup of room treatments, etc.

Adding subs to the setup is both a blessing and a curse. The Dunlavy’s need some support in the nether regions and a pair of HSU subs do add a solid foundation to music which enhances the overall presentation; however, it’s at the expense of some stage depth, width and image dimensionality. Placing the subs a few inches forward of the front plane of the speakers helps a little but that isn’t where they perform at their best as ‘subwoofers’.
Finding optimal room positions for bass augmentation always creates a clash with the phase aspect of integration resulting in the diminished soundstage described above.
Playing with phase settings has little impact on the problem since there’s just a toggle for 0 and 180.

Which brings me to the questions - 
1/ How does running a swarm setup, with 4 subs, affect phase/time integration with the mains? Does it create twice or half the issue or remove it altogether?

2/ Looking at subs such as the JL Audio F series with auto room calibration, does the EQ algorithm compensate for any time/phase anomaly or is it simply looking for a more linear bass response?

I don’t mind investing in more sophisticated subs so long as I don’t end up with the same problem. I’m not really inclined to mess with software and the like, unless there’s no other way.

Thanks

Rooze


128x128rooze
I just wanted to add a bit of information to readers about concerns with a somewhat related topic: aligning arrival times of midrange /treble soundwaves with bass soundwaves at our ears. Briefly stated: don't even bother to be concerned with it.  
    Midrange/treble complete cycle soundwaves are very directional and short compared to bass complete cycle soundwaves that are omnidirectional and very long.


Exactly. Two completely different animals. This may be one of the hardest parts of the whole thing to understand. Though granted, the whole DBA approach relies on a number of hard to understand concepts. No one of them really so much hard as different. At least I feel it must be something like that. Else why so many have explained so clearly and yet so few seem to get it?

This one though I give top honors because if there's one thing we all know for sure its that timing matters a lot. With full range speakers everything must be done just right or you will get poor if any imaging, and it will be obvious where the sound is coming from. With subs, and especially with a swarm, you can plop them down just about anywhere and never know. The first few weeks with mine I lost count how many times I walked right up to one and finally wound up putting my hand on it just to be sure it was working.

But then this should be obvious, if for no other reason than a lot of us run these things pointed at the wall. Hello! At. The. Wall.

How much more different you can get than that, I just don't know.
First for the OP - great choice of main speakers, wish he was still alive along with Jim T
( yes I owned and sold both ) and have Vandersteen to this day , time and phase do matter and most importantly above 120 HZ) the Vandersteen sub 9 is a swarm with analog 11 band EQ for each of the 4 subs to fix room issues below 120 and w aysemetic cut vs boost. 
Swarm fixes freq response issues caused by room, analog EQ fixes bass at listening position

dsp probably screws up time and phase above 120

have fun, Tori Amos beackons....
Also for students of the bass, yes I am a hack but I can get around a fretless, the wave is BIG, bigger than most rooms....so reality is the wave is folded and truncated anyway, which IF ya think about it absolutely F the phase...

IF you like math, get Olsons excellent and of course still very relevant text: Elements of Acoustical Engineering

but you also need a reference for accurate bass, two that I use are Ray Brown - Soular Energy and JD Souther - Silver Blue off of Black Rose ( Stanley Clarke, man that cat can play )

both of these recordings will reveal image shift at between 80-150 HZ 

you can figure out the notes ;-)
millercarbon:
"Exactly. Two completely different animals. This may be one of the hardest parts of the whole thing to understand. Though granted, the whole DBA approach relies on a number of hard to understand concepts. No one of them really so much hard as different. At least I feel it must be something like that. Else why so many have explained so clearly and yet so few seem to get it?"

Hello millercarbon,

     Besides Duke, I think we're both aware that we are probably the biggest believers and proponents of the 4/5-sub DBA concept on these forums.  There are several other members that are strong believers in the DBA concept but you and I are likely the most prominent and vocal advocates.  I believe this is due to us both doing a lot of research on the sound bass principles underpinning the DBA concept, being relatively early adopters of the concept and having years of practical experience actually using the concept in our own systems/ rooms and knowing first hand how consistently, reliably and exceptionally well the concept performs.
     I think I have a fairly good grasp of most of the dynamics afoot in the behavior of bass soundwaves in any given room that enables the 4-sub DBA concept to deliver near state of the art bass reproduction in any room and seamless bass integration with any pair of main speakers. 
     I understand that bass radiates in a omnidirectional pattern, the length of soundwaves are inversely proportional to their frequency, the length of deep bass soundwaves can often exceed any of a room's dimensions, humans require the entire full cycle soundwave to be present in the room to even perceive a sound, we require 3 complete soundwaves to perceive a change in pitch, we cannot localize bass soundwaves at or below about 80 Hz, soundwaves continue to reflect off of room boundaries (floor, ceiling and walls) until they are absorbed, diffused or run out of energy, the multiple soundwaves reflecting around the room will typically collide with each other causing frequency peaks, dips and nulls.  
     Utilizing multiple subs will actually increase the number of bass peaks, dips and nulls in the room but our amazing brains are able to process these multiple peaks, dips and nulls by summing the bass by frequency and averaging it out and creating a perception that the bass is smoother, faster and more detailed.  As a bonus, this excellent bass response perception is created no matter where in the room one's head is actually positioned. All quite amazing and very beneficial to music lovers desiring excellent bass reproduction throughout their entire room.
     I understand all of the above but I'm still having difficulty recalling exactly why it's not important that the timing of the bass soundwaves reaching our ears matches the timing of the midrange and treble soundwaves reaching our ears.  I know it's unimportant just by listening to my system, bass from 20-40 Hz reproduced by the 4 distributed subs and midrange/treble reproduced by a pair of carefully positioned Magnepan 3.7i main speakers.  The bass deep, powerful, smooth, fast, detailed, dynamic and natural seamlessly integrated with the main speakers.  
    I know there's a logical and reasonable explanation but I can't, for the life of me, recall it.  Hopefully, Duke will chime in again and explain it again. I'll write it down someplace this time if he does.

Tim