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Best bass in Earth! Bass that just smells right...

Bass ,room acoustics, attack, delay, headroom, pressurization, and integration with the main speakers. So this has been my quest. Perfect bass that enhances everything yet detracts from nothing...

Over the 25 plus years as a hobbyist (mostly Audiophile/Music lover) yet also a mechanical engineer and Virgo perfection is a must. Once I heard the swarm/distributed bass array done right I was sold. I probably have spent 10s of thousand over the years buying and selling just bass/subwoofers and every gizmo to aid in this process.

I finally find myself with 26 10 inch woofers (only using 20 at the moment)  from four Kinergetics sw 800's in a small 20 x 16 room. 4 towers with 5 10 inch Seas each and 2 of the smaller subs with 3 10 inch woofers each. They are all in great condition given age the drivers are tight and work perfectly. Of all the money I have spent in home audio this has been my most difficult challenge to achieve perfection. I love Stats and Maggies but also like AC/DC and other music that the plannars are not the best at. Dyna Audio and Dunlavy speakers are the fastest coned sealed speakers (I am sure there are a million speakers out there that equal or better them not here to debate speakers) . I personally have always preferred the sound of FAST sealed cone speakers.

Back to the bottom foundation which I feel all speakers need regardless of price and woofer size. Trying to get four Sub woofers correct in a room is not easy. I probably have 200 hours into these SW 800's and now trying different AMPs and configurations. Im close but not there Id give it 88-91 percent but that last 10 percent is the magic.

So for they peeps out there getting into this can of worms. First unless your a sadomasochist like me it's probably best to buy a system like the Audio Kinesis or Debra system. It's just guaranteed results. Second this is for music not HT there is a difference. Although I had the HSU ULS 15's sealed 2 of em and they are darn good, Revel b 15' A's, Muse Model 18's along with several others. These SW 800's are more like actual speakers that require a lot of work to get right. They also use a funky forward distortion feedback Compusound circuitry (Im not an EE but from what little I was able to read it sounds like a forward servo design in their BSC cross overs) tons of pros and cons to the design but the fact they were meant to mate with the original Martin Logan full panel CLS says volumes when it comes to transparency. Although I dont use the high pass just the low pass.

So if you are into real music and enjoy room pressurization with out destroying (actually increasing, presence, timing, and smell of the music) multiple subwoofers are a mandatory.

I am writing this post for all the peeps getting into real bass so you dont make all the mistakes I have made. We all know how expensive mistakes are that is and why we are members of Agon and other groups. I do want to Thank a couple of members on here for their help and wisdom. I wont name them they know who they are. And special Thank you and Happy New Year to the moderators and founders of Agon for giving all of us a place to gain view points, experiences, and wisdom!

-Allgood
128x128haywood310
haywood310's avatar
haywood310 OP
56 posts
 
phusis420 posts

From my experience so far.if you have two subs run them in stereo next to your mains. Basically creating "TRUE" full range speakers. No matter what your mains claim to be on the brochure. If you have more than two Mono is the way to go and aim them away from you like Duke says. Swarm Subs aka more than 3 can act as room treatments by cancelling nodes or adding room nodes to make you smile. Although I am going to test this theory in my room this week. Getting another AMP tomorrow to have 4 independent channels of amplification with separate X overs, phase, and volume control for each of the four 4 subs. I will run them both ways and see what I like best. Also side note 16 ohm with the subs can sound better than 4 ohms even though your getting more juice outta the Bass Amp at 4 ohms. Its past my IQ but it does change the sounds better sometime sometimes not.

Just my 2 cents.

Allgood!



@audiokinesis --

(@brotw posted: " As I understand it, an array of subs would be very effective at smoothing out the bass response of the room over a wider sweet spot. What about spatial cues from bass frequencies? ")

The good news is, you can have both.

My understanding is that true stereo below 80 Hz is actually quite rare, but if you want the ability to reproduce it, then (assuming four subs total) send the left channel signal to the two subs located towards the left-hand side of the room, and the right channel signal to the two subs located towards the right-hand side of the room.

Assuming there is stereo information below 80 Hz, rare it may be, and that one, if placement allowed, would like to take advantage of stereo information here, how would you approach connecting a diagonally positioned pair of subs (just 2, not 4) - like, one sub in the front left corner, and one in the rear right corner? Would you still hook them up in stereo being one sub is effectively placed to the left (front), and one is to the right (rear); or, would you rather connect them in mono?
phusis's avatar
phusis
1,141 posts
 
@haywood310 --

From my experience so far.if you have two subs run them in stereo next to your mains. Basically creating "TRUE" full range speakers. No matter what your mains claim to be on the brochure. If you have more than two Mono is the way to go and aim them away from you like Duke says. Swarm Subs aka more than 3 can act as room treatments by cancelling nodes or adding room nodes to make you smile. Although I am going to test this theory in my room this week. Getting another AMP tomorrow to have 4 independent channels of amplification with separate X overs, phase, and volume control for each of the four 4 subs. I will run them both ways and see what I like best. Also side note 16 ohm with the subs can sound better than 4 ohms even though your getting more juice outta the Bass Amp at 4 ohms. Its past my IQ but it does change the sounds better sometime sometimes not.

Just my 2 cents.

Allgood!

Thanks for your reply and sharing your experience on the use of dual subs, and where and how to connect them. That's exactly how I'm running mine, closely flanking the mains and in stereo (see my profile). I did consider placing the subs diagonally, but for now the current configuration will remain. I just recently implemented a few acoustical tweaks and a subtle PEQ correction on the subs, and it made a worthwhile difference making the response down low flatter while having a positive influence through the midrange on up. It's amazing what minor tweaks can do, when you know where to put them into effect. 
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
There is no stereo information at the lowest frequencies. Even if there is, there isn’t. I’m not gonna get into a technical spat over timing either. None of that matters. The simple fact is human beings cannot even hear low frequencies at less than one full cycle. Yes that is a fact. Yeah, science! So timing information or no timing information either way it doesn’t matter because you simply cannot hear it.

Both the physics and the psychoacoustics of really low bass are so radically different than midrange and treble I am about ready to give up trying to explain. One in a hundred pays attention and thinks. The rest already have their closed minds made up.

But wait! Miller! You are famous for saying your system has taut articulate 3D holographic bass! Liar liar pants on fire!

And that’s intellectual and tightly reasoned compared to the mindless repetition that is sure to come.

Whatever. Look. What people hear at low frequencies is volume. Period. Higher up we hear all kinds of detail. Down low its volume. Our brains and ears take the volume down low with the detail higher up and from that combination construct the 3D experience of stereo bass.

That’s the only explanation that fits all the observable facts. It explains why my 4 and 5 sub systems have exactly as much holographic 3D imaging when run mono as stereo. Exactly. The. Same.

So there is stereo, in the sense it can be heard. But there is not, in the sense its really mono.
phusis's avatar
phusis
1,141 posts
 
@millercarbon --

There is no stereo information at the lowest frequencies. Even if there is, there isn’t. I’m not gonna get into a technical spat over timing either. None of that matters. The simple fact is human beings cannot even hear low frequencies at less than one full cycle. Yes that is a fact. Yeah, science! So timing information or no timing information either way it doesn’t matter because you simply cannot hear it.

Let's indeed, to some extent, leave out technicalities - as you already proposed. And yet, you're all over it, right? I'll give you this: whether there is, or how frequently stereo information below, say, 100Hz is actually in the (digital) source material, is debatable. I doubt there's a comprehensive study on this, but I'd welcome more thorough insight on the matter - should it materialize. 

If stereo information is actually there down low in the source material, you're claiming it wouldn't matter because, as you write, we're not able to hear it. Ok. For stereo in general to matter, where we can aurally perceive it, it'd certainly nail the importance of placement re: timing. In regards to the lowest frequencies, however, what we hear may not be that important, and this could explain why some people fuzz about the importance of symmetrical placement of dual subs:

Stereo or not, I'd wager variations of pressurization in the lowest frequencies in regards to the distance and (possibly) direction of two bass sources, are perceivably felt. We may not be to tell exactly where they're coming from, but more importantly some of us can distinguish whether the pressurization is in unison as a combined output with the mains, i.e.: coming from equally distanced and directed sources (again, in relation to the mains) or not. The marker to me is for the integration with the mains to feel the most compelling, and to my experience this comes from placing the two subs symmetrically to the mains, preferable near them. The sonic image just falls into place here. I've tried close to endless combinations of placing my current subs non-symmetrically to my mains in my former listening room, and they never "clicked" the same way with the mains compared to the symmetrical solution. I speculated whether a diagonal placement of the subs in my current abode would make a worthwhile difference in regards to room mode cancellations, but so far I've chosen to trust my findings made earlier. 

This is not about stubbornly maintaining a position, but rather questioning a categorical approach presented by you that goes contrary to the experience made by some. You say it doesn't matter, but there are those of us who says that it does. Do you think telling us how things (presumably) work suddenly inverts our experience - why the urge to speak for all? 

Both the physics and the psychoacoustics of really low bass are so radically different than midrange and treble I am about ready to give up trying to explain. One in a hundred pays attention and thinks. The rest already have their closed minds made up.

Well, you certainly made up yours on this matter, supported by your beloved science. I can buy "paying attention" - indeed that's paramount when listening and evaluating. However, the thinking part comes up short when failing to take into account the "intel of listening" in forming an opinion that tries to dictate perceived impressions.
haywood310's avatar
haywood310 OP
56 posts
 
I read somewhere from an acoustical engineer that in "older recordings records then digitized" most of the deep bass was only in the left channel anyways??? Is this correct or does anyone know? If so all classic rock music (some of my favs) would be a boon to be in mono not a negative.
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