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Speaker shootout update; aggressive treble eliminating some (fairly?)

I've been trying out speakers in a complicated shoot out, both bookshelves and towers — all in my home with my gear. I'm looking for speakers obtainable up to about $4k but could go up (or down) a bit if the right thing came along.

Basic facts: All speakers were run in at least 100 hours. Room is 27 x 14 x 6.5 ceilings. Powering with all QS tubes, 60w, NOS, tube R2R dac, and decent cables. No terrible reflection points; room not overly live or dampened. REL R 328 sub available but I did most listening without it.

Recent auditions, type:

Klipsch RP 600-M (budget singleton of the group)
Fritz Rev Carbon 7 mk II (bookshelf, 2 way, soft dome)
Focal 936 (tower, 3 way, inverted metal)
Martin Logan Motion 60s XTi (tower, 3 way, AMT)

Coming soon:

Salk SS 6M (bookshelf, 2 way, beryllium)
Dynaudio Evoke 30's (tower, 3 way, soft dome)

Let me speak just to the problems, rather than what was good about the speakers. So far, I've found the Klipsch, Focal, and especially the Martin Logans were all too bright — forward, aggressive, "turn it down" treble.

The ML's were the most impossible to tame and hardest to listen to on more tracks. (I did a lot of hanging of towels and other dampeners and other soft things to try to see if I could bring them to heel. I varied the recordings used. Changed cables/wires. No luck.)

The Focals were occasionally too bright; their bigger problem was a bit too much energy in my small listening space. They were better when I plugged their ports with socks.

I'm looking forward to how the next two speakers sound. The Dynaudio towers, I notice, are 10 inches shorter and half the weight of the other towers; not sure what that might mean, but it could just be right size for my space. I'm looking forward to seeing if the Salks bring more detail to the treble without also being too rolled off or harsh.

Hearing is very personal for physiological and taste reasons. However, if anyone has any thoughts about why I might be experiencing some of the phenomena I am (harsh treble, especially) based on my room or gear, etc., that might help me understand factors I'm not fully appreciating. Thanks.


128x128hilde45
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,389 posts
 
Maybe others here have knowledge of the amp that might help to clarify what can be expected.

In general it’s worthwhile to pay attention to impedance matching amp, pre-amp and speakers. Distortion results otherwise which can produce the symptoms observed. It’s generally more of an issue when higher impedance tube gear is involved.

Personally I would go no further until I confirmed all my components were well matched to each other in regards to impedance. Could be a wild goose chase with speakers otherwise.

Also what is a “tube R2R DAC”? Also what is a “QS tube”? What amp and dac specifically? That will help to assess. Thanks

Of course with tube gear, it also helps to test tubes to know the condition. NOS tubes sound like a good thing to many but they are still old and may not be a good place to start.

My concern Here is the focus on the speakers Unless it is safe to assume first that all is well upstream.


MIT terminator ICs are good for taming brightness but may just be a bandage and not address the root problem. I find DNM Reson ICs to be very coherent and easy on the ears. Those are my personal preference.
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
5,015 posts
 
@mapman 
QS = Quicksilver. For both preamp and amp. They're matched perfectly.
“tube R2R DAC” = MHDT Orchid DAC with tube.
NOS tubes purchased from Brent Jessee and carefully tested.
I think it's safe to say that upstream is ok.
mammothguy54's avatar
mammothguy54
951 posts
 
@hilde45   I have been living with a metal dome tweeter for too many years. That, along with a 5' mid-range and the overall "presence and brightness" is just unbearable with music that isn't extremely well recorded & produced.  Well done records sound quite good.  But, anything less in quality is rather harsh.  So, I made the decision to change.  I have lived with Dynaudio speakers in the past and have auditioned their newer models.  I now have on order the new Dynaudio Contour 60i (the i is the improved, next generation of the Contour 60 that was released in 2016).  Dynaudio silk soft dome tweeter is marvelous.  So is the soft dome tweeters produced by Scanspeak.  Any speaker you get with either of those tweeters should be very pleasing to your needs and tastes.  Just my opinion, of course.   By the way, the Evoke series uses a different model tweeter than the Esotar 2i in the Contour series.  It does utilize similar design technology of the Esotar 2i but is not the top-end technology from Dynaudio.  If you want the best from Dynaudio you may want to consider a model from the Contour series as they all utilize the Esotar 2i tweeter.  The Contour 20 is around your budget and the Contour 30 is above your budget, but would be very well worth the added investment.  And the build quality is superb and the finish quality is stunning.
Best to you.  Be healthy.
oldhvymec
5,101 posts
 
OP, I was thinking about a 6.5" lid. In the seated position. 
Your ears in a normal chair, are pretty close to the ceiling.

That's a BIG problem. I would try a low rider chair, just to see
if that would tame a lot of the HF, issues your speaking of.

I would also pitch the top of the speakers. forward, 5-15 degrees.

Eric, said in the first post (and I agree,100%) room treatment of a particular, and really peculiar, type is needed. You have a very different room, for sure.

You say your pretty new to the HiFi world, understand like most, I had to learn 40 years ago, too. TREAT the area your in FIRST, as much as you can, then place as best you can.  

Your speakers, or your ears can't be that close to a border... HEAVY (right) over your head defusion, or you'll boil your ears. Stay away from clad wire. Silver over copper, can be REAL bright, with ANY hard dome.. Pure copper, pure silver... Just not as bright.. Soft domes are not as bright, GOOD planars are not bright. 

There are a lot of ways to tame "Bright", normally it's not the speaker as much as the, room, weird cables, and roll a signal valve or two.
I know my valve units VERY well.. Pretty easy to adjust, "Bright" in or out of my units..

Regards
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
5,015 posts
 
@mammothguy Thanks for the report about the Dyns. I've seen the Confidence series used (about 1/2 price at The Music Room) and I think they had the Contour series recently. Possibly of interest. I'm really starting to realize that I've just got too much energy, overall, in the room. Bookshelves or at least smaller towers are probably the way to go.

@oldhvymec
Great suggestions; thanks for a helpful post. I'm going to swap my seats out today and try your suggestions. Will avoid those wires, too, and the experiment with soft domes will continue, soon.

But if you're right about seating position, and if I do more work on the area acoustics, I may be able to get the detail I'm looking for from a well implemented non-soft dome tweeter, like the Be tweeter or perhaps an AMT. I'll have a nice trio of options to compare soon -- Fritz soft-dome bookshelves, Salk Be dome bookshelves, Dynaudio soft dome towers (shorter than ML or Focals).

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