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Does the first reflection point actually matter??

Hello my friends,

So please read the whole post before commenting. The question is nuanced.

First, as you probably know I’m a huge fan of the well treated room, and a fan boy of GIK acoustics as a result, so what I am _not_ arguing is against proper room treatment. I remember many years ago, perhaps in Audio magazine (dating myself?) the concept of treating the first reflection points came up, and it seems really logical, and quickly adopted. Mirrors, flashlights and lasers and paying the neighbor’s kid (because we don’t have real friends) to come and hold them while marking the wall became common.

However!! In my experience, I have not actually been able to tell the difference between panels on and off that first reflection point. Of course, I can hear the difference between panels and not, but after all these years, I want to ask if any of you personally know that the first reflection point really matters more than other similar locations. Were we scammed? By knowing I mean, did you experiment? Did you find it the night and day difference that was uttered, or was it a subtle thing, and if those panels were moved 6" off, would you hear it?


Best,


Erik
erik_squires
aj523
375 posts
 
I just had my free phone consultation with Mr. Foley and after reviewing my room through photos (see link), he recommended the following:

1. No diffusion anywhere to begin with. That will worsen the problem he perceives given all the windows.

2. Treat the walls closest to the speakers first so that’s the front wall behind the speakers first and the side walls with as much absorption as possible.

3. No need to buy software to measure the room since the problems are obvious and better spent on product.

4. The treatment of corners with bass traps etc is a common fallacy and not a priority.

5. Tame from "40 cycles - 7000 cycles" as he calls it with eight (8) carbon panel CPs at $750 per panel. And since each panel weighs 150lbs, its about $1,000 for shipping. So all in $7,000.

6. He did some calculation where he said I would see 65 percent improvement. I pressed him on what that is measured against but forgot his reply.

7. Then we can talk about diffusion after a period of time of listening to the results.

THOUGHTS?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BFAQLGEo4UmknMZm6
audiokinesis
2,764 posts
 
Aj523 wrote: 

" 5. Tame from "40 cycles - 7000 cycles" as he calls it with eight (8) carbon panel CPs at $750 per panel. And since each panel weighs 150lbs, its about $1,000 for shipping. So all in $7,000." 

I agree with the frequency region he focuses on.

We see that serious acoustic treatment is expensive. That seven thousand dollar figure is an argument for taking loudspeaker/room interaction into account from the beginning, as imo there are more cost-effective solutions.

Duke

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,397 posts
 
A dedicated audio room is way much cheaper to treat and controls....Mine with 2 windows relatively small with irregular geometry, cost peanuts and the results are astounding, superior to many upgrading of my gear...

But a living room, being a common room ask for more esthetical solutions, then costly indeed....

My own room look like the seat of an arachneid that will use his many "fingers" to connect all with his silk cables.... :)

i could not do that without divorcing in a common room....

And like usual people never speak about active room controls of acoustics, only about passive materials treatment.... I begin to think that i had invented the concept..... It seems nobody has ever hear about it all...But active controls cannot be done in a common room anyway...
aj523
375 posts
 
@audiokinesis

Thanks Duke. Your feedback is ALWAYS appreciated. As you know I seriously took the room into consideration when make the speaker decision, turning down several planars /dipoles that i was really interested in. The Harbeths, 3 feet out from the front wall and almost 7 feet from the side walls, with their large front baffle seemed to be the best choice and quite frankly they sound absolutely amazing, BUT Foley tells me the Harbeth midrange and the speaker overall will sound like a different speaker altogether to the extreme.

Soooo... now I’m deciding on putting 1200 lbs of treatment in our main living room but save multiple x $$$$ on the cost of a wedding next June since my fiancee will surely leave me. Not an easy one indeed. 🤔
erik_squires OP
16,676 posts
 
5. Tame from "40 cycles - 7000 cycles" as he calls it with eight (8) carbon panel CPs at $750 per panel. And since each panel weighs 150lbs, its about $1,000 for shipping. So all in $7,000.

@aj523

This is why I always recommend GIK acoustics. Very effective products at reasonable prices. I don’t know of any of them that weigh 150 lbs either. :)

As an alternative, consider the GIK panels with soffit traps, which are cheaper, lighter weight, and also go down to low frequencies. They also do free room consultation.

Truthfully, you may NOT need any bass treatment, so panels that go down to 40 Hz may be serious overkill. Tame the mid/treble range, and this may re-balance your room well enough. If that doesn't make your speakers sound larger and more powerful, then pull out the bass traps (GIK soffit). 

Also, might want to try using excess toe-in. Have the tweeter line cross in front of your head. This may sufficiently improve reflections off the sides. Of course, heavy curtains would also help.



Best,

E
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