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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
brownsfan
1,508 posts
 
People who are in the business of selling are going to promote what they sell, and more often than not, are going to downplay products that they do not sell.   Is there a single Magico dealer in the world who would tell you that Wilson makes better speakers?  

As far as "fanboy" comments that may appear hyperbolic, I suspect most of us can empathize with a person who has worked hard and long to optimize their system, who are eloquent in praise of a key element in that painful optimization effort.  I rarely take anything I read on Audiogon as gospel truth.  You just need to temper what you read sometimes. 

I have a dedicated listening room that I have been working on for a while.  I've carefully optimized speaker and main listening position, and added a fair amount of room treatment.  The room is an order of magnitude better than it was when I started, but I've gone as far as those efforts can take me.  Further improvements will require equalization or a distributed bass array. 

I made a decision to give the Swarm system a try after reading the Earl Geddes publications that explain the theoretical underpinnings of the distributed array approach.  I'm still waiting for delivery, so I can't comment based on experience, but in my view, Ralph hit the nail on the head.
Those that denigrate a distributed bass array are apparently simply ignorant of its advantages. Many dealers don't sell them, so their comments can be sidelined safely enough.
The DBA approach just makes too much sense for anyone to dismiss a priori, especially if that dismissal comes from someone who makes a ton of money selling REL subs. 

I'm still waiting for delivery of the Swarm, so I can't comment based on experience.  The Swarm may not do what I am hoping it will do, but if it does not significantly improve bass response in my particular room, that doesn't invalidate the approach.   There are no products that are the right choice for every situation. 




gdnrbob
4,452 posts
 
Even Richard Vandersteen believes that multiple subs are better than one or two.
PM ctsooner. He spoke with Mr. V. about this not long ago.
Though I have to say the new Sub 3 with equalization will probably be very close to multiple subwoofers.
I will be ordering them for myself, soon.
Bob
mitch2
4,043 posts
 
Off topic - 
@atmasphere 
and in fact we have with internally geared hubs (the Rohloff being the best of them) and the Pinion gearbox which is mounted in the frame.
No kidding....

Rohloff 14-speed German Speedhub and Pinion 12-speed gearbox.....my Dura Ace have been absolutely reliable but man, those two internal hubs are sweet!

lalitk's avatar
lalitk
5,575 posts
 
“A swarm would sound better than one or two subs most people do nothave the room or desire to have 4 subwoofer boxes in the room along with a pair of main loud speakers
So the reality is swarms almost never come up based on practicality vs performance”

Bingo! 
In my room, I am more than content with a pair of mid-size REL’s. 
teo_audio
2,197 posts
 
@Erik_squires wrote:

" The idea that only swarms can sound good, or are the ideal fix for any possible ailment your system has is just not supported by evidence."

This is what’s called a "straw man argument", and is a fallacy. Here’s the definition for anyone not familiar with the term:

"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making."

Duke


Actually Eric is correct in the idea that it does not fix the room. This swarm idea. It overwhelms the problems and buries it under noise, in an area where the human ear is least sensitive. Like Styx said, "you’re fooling yourself if you don’t believe it..."


First, Fix the room.

Fix the room
Fix the room
Fix the room
Fix the room.

Can’t say it enough times.

Fix the room.

Acoustics. But not enough people know how or can supply the material to do so.

I’ve been standing by the side of someone who can fix the room and is many times called in to be the given acoustical and noise control ’cooler’ to the given acoustical company’s ’bouncer’. Where the bouncers, any and all of them (sometimes 4 companies in a row), can’t get the job done. None will guarantee their work. Taras guarantees his work, contractually. Unique, for the most part, in the entire acoustics business.

But he can and invariably does get it done.There is a reason that almost every single time Teo Audio is involved in a hotel room at a show.... it captures ’best of show’.

The stories I could tell you. But he won’t allow me to tell them.
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