Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

@audiotroy

That's very nice, but what exactly does that have to do with what the OP was asking?Self promotion is tacky at best.

Good bass is hard, really hard in most rooms. Bass arrays simple make good bass easier. There should be special emphasis on good. They do not magically create great bass, but then it is the rare audiophile with great bass.

There are two types of people, those who don't think low frequency bass is directional and accept that bass arrays must work, and those that think bass is directional and who put subs near their speakers invariably creating combing effects when there is bass leakage to higher frequencies either directly or through distortion that invariable is worse than any issues with directionality from a bass array.

Bass arrays by reducing peaks can even improve decay time and parasitic environmental vibration.


Audiophiles like to talk about fast bass, and then will go into great detail about damping factor, speaker design, woofer diameter and any number of other phantom impacts. Most of the perceived "speed" of bass is room decay. If you want truly fast bass, you have to address your room.  A bass array will help you get there, but can't solve all room issues. Most factory car audio systems have faster bass than high end home systems. Those windows may be reflective, but an automotive interior is filled with a lot of absorptive material by volume not to mention material specifically for sound deadening. Listen to how fast the bass is next time you are in the car.

dannad:
" There are two types of people, those who don't think low frequency bass is directional and accept that bass arrays must work, and those that think bass is directional and who put subs near their speakers invariably creating combing effects when there is bass leakage to higher frequencies either directly or through distortion that invariable is worse than any issues with directionality from a bass array."

     I just wanted to discuss dannard's comment above in a little more detail.
     I'm definitely in the camp that believes fundamental deep bass tones, under about 80 Hz, are not able to be localized without help from the naturally produced bass harmonics or overtones of these fundamental deep bass tones, that often extend well above 80 Hz and are able to be localized,  that are reproduced in stereo through the main speakers. 
     The key ingredient is our brain's amazingly sophisticated sound processing capabilities, developed and refined through the eons of evolution and natural selection to be currently finely honed in the vast majority of extant humans. One of the brain's extraordinary capabilities is the ability to associate the naturally produced bass harmonics or overtones of fundamental deep bass tones, that are above 80 Hz, reproduced in stereo through the main speakers and therefore localizable, with the fundamental deep bass tone itself, that are below 80 Hz, reproduced in mono through the sub(s) and therefore unlocalizable, and creates the perception of localizing the deep fundamental bass tone in space.
     This whole cerebral associative process, I believe, explains why , as dannard states:
" There are two types of people, those who don't think low frequency bass is directional and accept that bass arrays must work, and those that think bass is directional and who put subs near their speakers invariably creating combing effects when there is bass leakage to higher frequencies either directly or through distortion that invariable is worse than any issues with directionality from a bass array."

     I think there are two types of people as dannard states but I would describe them a bit differently:
1. Those that realize we all perceive deep bass tones below 80 Hz as not directional and therefore utilize bass arrays to obtain excellent bass performance.
2.  Those that believe deep bass tones below 80 Hz are directional, place a sub next to each main speaker to reproduce it and believe this configuration is responsible for their perceiving the deep bass below 80 Hz as stereo.  However, they're not realizing that their brain's ability to associate the mono fundamental deep bass tones, below 80 Hz that are actually being reproduced by their L+R  subs, with the stereo harmonics or overtones, above 80 Hz that are being reproduced by their main speakers, are the real reason they are perceiving the deep bass below 80 Hz as directional and in stereo.
     In my opinion, an understandable misunderstanding by group#2 above.  I don't think it's really a big deal, either, since both groups are ultimately perceiving the mono and nondirectional deep bass below 80 Hz as stereo.

Tim

ONE:
Well, if 2 are better than 1, and 4 are better than 2, then are 8 better than 4; are 16 better than 8? 32, 64, 128, 256...? (Is that a straw man argument, or, lacking other evidence, simply taking the argument to its logical conclusion?)

TWO:
A friend of mine who was the audio guy for the Untied Nations and the DJ for the Nuyorican Poets Cafe gave me a tip, which I have to try over the weekend:

Put the sub in the spot where your listening chair is. Then walk around the room. When you find the spot where the bass sounds tightest and deepest, that’s the spot to place the sub.

Assuming this theory works, I’m hoping that spot isn’t in front of the door to the room.

Unreceiveddogma wrote:

" Well, if 2 are better than 1, and 4 are better than 2, then are 8 better than 4; are 16 better than 8? 32, 64, 128, 256...? (Is that a straw man argument, or, lacking other evidence, simply taking the argument to its logical conclusion?)"

My guess is that (aside from cost) practicality vs perceived utility is what sets the upper limit on the number of subs. For most people, apparently that number is either 0 or 1. For some, it is more.

Each additional sub offers LESS incremental improvement than the previous one, simply because there is less net increase in the spatial distribution (assuming the previous subs were intelligently distributed). Where the "point of diminishing returns" lies is arguably a judgment call, again with practicality probably being a major factor.

Duke