More power for moderate listening levels?


Hi,

I can't seem to find good information regarding the effect of relatively high powered amps on low to moderate listening levels. I have a low powered class A amp that sounds wonderful at moderate volumes but not surprisingly shows signs of strain when cranked up. I am contemplating an upgrade that would bring much more power to solve this problem. However, since I don't play music really loud that often I'm wondering if the upgrade is really all that necessary. It would be worth it if the reserve power of the new amplifier improved sound quality at all levels.     

Thanks for your help,

Brian
brianbiehs
At the SAME volume, will a higher powered amp improve the sound quality?

No. It does not work that way. As the great Robert Harley said, "If the first watt isn’t any good, why would you want 200 more of them?" Good question. You have a great amp. You have great speakers. Unfortunately way too inefficient to sound good together at anything more than medium volume.

What nobody seems to want to admit, at 86dB you need 2 watts just to get to 89 dB. Doesn’t sound like much. No problem, you got 25. But remember, that’s measured at 1m. Do you sit at 1m? Not even. Sound disperses at a somewhat different rate for different speakers but the inverse square is a good first approximation. That is to say, twice as far away, 2 squared is 4, you get 1/4 the volume. Let’s say you sit real close, just 2m away. Now you need 2 watts just to get back to 86, which is not very loud. To play 89 you need 4 watts. At 92 dB its 8w. 95, now just barely getting to what someone might consider loud, you need 16, and your amp is just about tapped out. 105 is plenty loud, but 10dB calls for ten times the power, or 160 watts.

These are the most conservative possible numbers. Sit even a little further back, in a normal room with normal absorption, and using average volume not intermittent peaks, you can easily wind up with ten times that, and there are not a lot of 1,600 watt amps. Which to me sounds about right for playing those speakers at satisfyingly loud volume. No wonder your beautiful Pass is strained.

A huge amount of our perception of "strain" is tied into volume. With seriously inefficient speakers such as these its just real hard to get the mind around the fact all that power is going into.... not much. Just wasted. Not even going into heat. The speakers can handle much more. Its just a bad design, for anything other than moderate volume listening.

Which, remember again, first thing I said, you have great speakers and a great amp. Just not great if you want to listen at high volume. Horses for courses.
I don't think you need more power, but you may need different power.

As a counter point, if you can listen to Ayre, Bryston and Luxman you should.


86 db sensitivity 25 wpc amp? LOL Do you have a buddy with Parasound, A21,23.  Something like that. Krell 100 or 250 wpc, Mark L will push those puppies.. If you want a pitch black background, some type of class d. They are 1/3 the cost of the Pass but 25 X the power.

Not only will they power your speakers, you can see for yourself, without all the bluster about less efficient speakers. BLA BLA BLA...

NOT twice as much 25 times as much..... BUY a bigger amp..

25 watts per channel is 25 watts per channel

If you you want to one up that, Treat as much of the room as you can stand.  I like as little room treatment as possible.

Those are great sounding speakers, with accurate factory measurements.  86 is just fine with todays amps that are from 2-2000 watts, EASY 2-3-4000 WPC not uncommon. No need to scrimp..

So were are clear, I own Pass, First Watt, and two kits I built... and at least 3 pairs of speakers that are 84%.. They can sound up
50 X 50 X 15 dance floor to over 100 db... CLEARLY... Zero floor noise zip nada..... That's with an old vinyl rig too (Russco) and a C20 Mac.

25 wpc? At least it's a good 25 watts... NOW 250 or better...

Regards
Hello,
I agree with so many of you it is hard to keep track. I have had the exact same issues all corrected by the things said in this thread. 200 watt class A to crank up the volume. A used pass 250, you are talking some serious money. I have tried the Ayre, Mark Levenson, Hegel. It’s not the amp it’s the speakers. You can pull 45,000 pounds of freight with a semi-tractor/trailer but only go about 75 Mph or pull practically nothing in a Porsche and go 200 mph plus. To get something to cover it all it’s tough and very expensive. That’s why Porsche doesn’t make semi trucks and Mack doesn’t make sports cars. 
 It’s very simple. For the dance parties get a different pair of speakers like very efficient Klipsch RP-600m maybe with a separate amp. You need a very efficient speaker with a horn or horns in it. Maybe upgrade to the Cornwall. A lot of people put them on the wall so they can be out of the way or maybe on a completely different wall. I say leave your nice sounding system alone and create a second system. You might be able to get away with a BlueNode Powernode 2i $899 with the Klipsch RP-600m on sale now for $450. All the home theater guys love Klipsch speakers and ported SVS subs for home theater because they play loud very well. Everyone who watches a movie in my theater says it’s the best sounding home theater they have been in. That’s because my system is setup for quality not quantity. It will play loud enough for it to be a little uncomfortable which I don’t do.  This can be a rabbit hole you don’t get out of and can be very expensive. Better to avoid the rabbit hole all together. Concert speakers are not audiofile speakers. They consist of an array of horns with humongous bass drivers. If you need the bass to go with your face party add an inexpensive ported sub. 
In my opinion the most overlooked spec when choosing an amp is the reserve amps or instantaneous amps. This is a power reserve that helps especially in the midrange and lower end. It will also improve dynamics and overall sound at all levels. This is a simplified explanation but I don't want to right a whole book here.