Folks- Phil and I are good friends, but have disagreed on room treatment for the past few years. (ie. I knew he would write a sizzler to my response and it doesn't offend me)
Agear- 100% correct analysis. Philes need to work together and Phil has actually helped me tune my room for the better--our recent exercise in speaker placement/toe-in made my image more natural size-wise and overall much better sound. I have bass issues due to size and because the room can't pressurize (due to adjoining hallways). We also played with some furniture placement and figured some stuff out about my fireplace that I need to do something with. In general, audiophiles don't criticize enough and that leads to lazy sound. I was very happy when he said he thought images were too big- as that confirmed my suspicions as well.
It also effects our amp choices (getting back to the point of this thread)-- Audions don't provide the impact or bass depth that they do in Phil's room and frankly I had them for a month, with tons of tube changes, etc and they still didn't do it for me. I believe they work better in his room due to untreated/rising bass response. I also believe this has also been the case with a Zu Dominance owner who tried the same amps and now has FirstWatt SIT1s- and who also has a Rives treated room. In fairness, my room needs pushier bass due to size, but a PP 15w set of quads with a design from 1953 was much more dynamic and bigger bass than 25w Audions. Go figure.
Also, Phil has been asking me for quite some time to take out some of the room treatment, so I finally did it a few weeks back - and haven't seen an audiophile that shocked in quite some time. His comments above sum up the differences well in my room. The $500 in panels we took down had more of an impact than ANY cable or preamp I've tried, hands down. Unfortunately the ceiling tiles aren't easily removable, and they provided the largest difference that we couldn't judge that day- I hate low 8' ceilings!
That all said, I 100% stand by my comments as it relates to detail/sound stage. My Wilson/BAT system with no room treatment had similar issues that I didn't realize until I hired Rives. Smaller sound/image, less separation, etc. I can hear it instantly. For one, when I listen to an orchestra--i can separate where the clarinets are in the soundstage with tremendous accuracy. That only happens when slap echo is reduced. We know from measurements, that his room has rising bass response---so we know a bass trap will help tremendously clear up a muddied mid range. The effect will not be small.
Glory- this isn't a knock on Phil specifically like you insinuate. I think any untreated room has all the same issues. What have you done to alleviate room issues btw?
I 100% believe audiophiles need to focus more on the room BEFORE vibration, racks, cables, etc. Typical rectangles have up to 30db swings---that's just life. I'm not saying those other things don't matter (I am just starting to play with them now). And I'm not advocating only dedicated rooms. But bass traps can be done custom that match the room architecture, art panels now exist that look exactly like paintings (the GIK ones I own are ok, but there are much better/expensive options), in-wall acoustic panels are now sold, ceiling clouds can match certain decors- or custom soffit ceilings can be made. Bookshelves provide reasonable diffusion and there are window treatments that look good and help out. It's not hard--it just costs more perhaps.
but hey, that's just one man's opinion. I will update our thread after Phil/I's experiment in his room at some future date. to put it another way--I have NEVER heard of an audiophile who didn't praise room treatment more than any other "upgrade" once done. not a single one.
Agear- 100% correct analysis. Philes need to work together and Phil has actually helped me tune my room for the better--our recent exercise in speaker placement/toe-in made my image more natural size-wise and overall much better sound. I have bass issues due to size and because the room can't pressurize (due to adjoining hallways). We also played with some furniture placement and figured some stuff out about my fireplace that I need to do something with. In general, audiophiles don't criticize enough and that leads to lazy sound. I was very happy when he said he thought images were too big- as that confirmed my suspicions as well.
It also effects our amp choices (getting back to the point of this thread)-- Audions don't provide the impact or bass depth that they do in Phil's room and frankly I had them for a month, with tons of tube changes, etc and they still didn't do it for me. I believe they work better in his room due to untreated/rising bass response. I also believe this has also been the case with a Zu Dominance owner who tried the same amps and now has FirstWatt SIT1s- and who also has a Rives treated room. In fairness, my room needs pushier bass due to size, but a PP 15w set of quads with a design from 1953 was much more dynamic and bigger bass than 25w Audions. Go figure.
Also, Phil has been asking me for quite some time to take out some of the room treatment, so I finally did it a few weeks back - and haven't seen an audiophile that shocked in quite some time. His comments above sum up the differences well in my room. The $500 in panels we took down had more of an impact than ANY cable or preamp I've tried, hands down. Unfortunately the ceiling tiles aren't easily removable, and they provided the largest difference that we couldn't judge that day- I hate low 8' ceilings!
That all said, I 100% stand by my comments as it relates to detail/sound stage. My Wilson/BAT system with no room treatment had similar issues that I didn't realize until I hired Rives. Smaller sound/image, less separation, etc. I can hear it instantly. For one, when I listen to an orchestra--i can separate where the clarinets are in the soundstage with tremendous accuracy. That only happens when slap echo is reduced. We know from measurements, that his room has rising bass response---so we know a bass trap will help tremendously clear up a muddied mid range. The effect will not be small.
Glory- this isn't a knock on Phil specifically like you insinuate. I think any untreated room has all the same issues. What have you done to alleviate room issues btw?
I 100% believe audiophiles need to focus more on the room BEFORE vibration, racks, cables, etc. Typical rectangles have up to 30db swings---that's just life. I'm not saying those other things don't matter (I am just starting to play with them now). And I'm not advocating only dedicated rooms. But bass traps can be done custom that match the room architecture, art panels now exist that look exactly like paintings (the GIK ones I own are ok, but there are much better/expensive options), in-wall acoustic panels are now sold, ceiling clouds can match certain decors- or custom soffit ceilings can be made. Bookshelves provide reasonable diffusion and there are window treatments that look good and help out. It's not hard--it just costs more perhaps.
but hey, that's just one man's opinion. I will update our thread after Phil/I's experiment in his room at some future date. to put it another way--I have NEVER heard of an audiophile who didn't praise room treatment more than any other "upgrade" once done. not a single one.