Tube Amp soundstage


I hope everyone is safe and healthy during these strange times. I wondering if someone could explain to me the reason my tube amp has a deeper soundstage than my SS amps? Two years back I built an Elekit 8200 which puts out around 8-10w/c in ultra linear mode, depending on the power tubes. I usually run KT88’s or 6L6’s, and less often EL34’s. It powers a pair of Tekton Enzo 2.7’s which are quite efficient at a claimed 98db. The SS amps I’ve used with these speakers include a vintage NAD 35w receiver, a Musical Fidelity m3si @ 85w, a Rogue Sphinx @ 100w and a Hegel H80. Now granted, non of these amps are what I would consider high end audio, but no matter what, the little tube amp always seems to have a deeper, more 3-D soundstage and the SS amps sound a little flatter. Same source, same DAC, same speakers and cables. There are things I appreciate about the SS sound, such as tighter, better defined bass and an effortless ability to play louder (which I do less and less), but every time I rotate the little tube amp back in, I hear a slightly more organic sound and that deeper soundstage.
dtapo
There are solid state amps that can make a sound stage as good as a tube amp, but most of them are class D.

The differences you hear between tubes and traditional solid state has been about distortion for the last 60 years. Solid state amps have higher ordered harmonic distortion that is more audible than that of tubes, and so tend to be bright. They also can have more distortion at lower power levels, and that can mess with low level detail. But on paper, they appear to have less distortion. But 'less' should be taken with a grain of salt, since the ear reacts differently depending on the kind of distortion being produced.


This stuff is pretty audible; its measurable too but understanding what the measurements mean, and more importantly getting the right measurements is a bit of a trick. One trick that is used commonly in audio is to measure the distortion of the amplifier at 100 Hz. Any solid state amp will measure well at this frequency. But the problem is that such amps have feedback to control distortion, which goes down as frequency increases, because the Gain Bandwidth Product on which the feedback relies is insufficient. So distortion rises with frequency. That is why its measured at 100 Hz, to cover up this problem.

The has been going on for so long that many people, including people that test amplifiers, don't think of it as a problem. But if you measure that amplifier at 3KHz things start to look different- you can see how its distortion is increasing.

So you have two ways to avoid this- either no feedback at all, or so much feedback that the amp is able to compensate for the distortion added due to the operation of the feedback. Feedback does this, if in **insufficient** amounts, through a process called 'bifurcation'. When there's **enough** feedback, this process is suppressed. But that takes north of 35dB, and traditionally to do that at 8-15KHz hasn't really been possible with most of the semiconductors available to designers in past decades. So we still have tubes, which are fairly linear even with no feedback, although they will make more 2nd and/or 3rd harmonic.

The lower ordered harmonics, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th, get treated by the ear the same way- they add a little 'bloom' or 'warmth' (audiophile terms for this) which is relatively innocuous compared to the higher orders, to which the ear is keenly sensitive. If the 2nd or 3rd is present in enough quantity, it will mask the presence of the higher orders and the amp will sound smooth. They also allow you to hear a greater perception of the sound stage- this is the part that most people don't get. The better class D amps have a similar distortion signature (although at a much lower level than tubes, but nevertheless mostly lower orders) and so they can sound quite tube-like (i.e. musical), including the wider deeper soundstage.

The thing is, you might think this to be an error of amps like this, but if you've had the opportunity to hear what the actual musical performance sounded like, you find out that its helpful, because in this way despite the distortion, the sound stage is presented much closer to the original than amps that don't have this property!

tablejockey
1,815 posts12-20-2020 8:16am"Sweet EL34s, plump KT88, and the all time best 6L6 (I think)"

oldhvymec-That’s what I hear. Not the modern 6L6, but the lower power RCA 6L6G.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

TJ I know the old RCAs will take a heck of a beating, the military metal cover is another tough valve.

Something about a good 6L6, my buddy in Sheldon, great musician, great person. He use to be a BIG time bass player. ALL his bass amps were 6L6. He plays just about anything well, so he starts working on his 6-12 string stuff, again, back to the 6L6. He doesn’t like the British sound, EL34. KT88 are to fat on the bottom, he is tinkering though.. After 55 years of rockin’ he’s not gonna change to much..

I’ll say this though, DON’T buy the cheepos’ (6L6) that are being advertised on EBay from, the Eastern block.. BAD, design and sound. They come out of the box at 10-25% of a new Sylvania, RCA or GE. Just JUNK.. They won’t hold a bias, and take a while to sound OK.. I lost over 10% due to out of the box failure and another 5% with a 24 hour break-in. BAD.

Merry Christmas Everyone.. / Have a Good Holiday..

Regards


MC says "Designers never came up in my post at all. Now you’re pretending it did. Crazy."

Look...the inconvenient truth is that when talking about tubes vs SS You CANNOT separate the equipment from the design if you want to discuss the harmonics that are produced. Period!

Any device, tube or transistor, will display the same basic character with respect to odd or even harmonic distortions depending on how it is used. In a single ended design there is one amplifying device covering the entire musical signal while in a push pull or complimentary design there are two: one for one half of the signal and the other the remaining half. The simple fact that second order harmonics are louder than third order harmonics in most any device dominates the single ended approach while push pull and complimentary designs cancel these distortions by the very nature of their operation. What this means is that any device, tube or transistor, will display the same basic character with respect to odd or even harmonic distortions depending on how it is used.

MC makes these erroneous claims about even harmonics being attributable to the tubes themselves...and SS gear (w/o any design considerations) produces more odd harmonics. This is just plain wrong regardless of how MC chooses to spin it. It’s not about a tube vs a transistor - it’s all about implementation...yes, the friggin’ design!

From a practical standpoint most SS designs are not single-ended and lend themselves to producing odd harmonics so MC falls into the trap of believing it must be due to the gear using SS components instead of valves. Wrong. So very wrong. This isn’t word play MC, this isn’t a game, this isn’t dastardly use of a Cusinart...this is just you not understanding something.

The Sylvania 6L6 is very nice indeed.

Ralph post is a Phd,

of course SS with a tube front end SS output , liquid cooling, no emiter resistors, etc and a few other tricks can sound incredible, see Vandersteen M5, M7
of course soundstage depends on preserving those subtle time and phase related cues as well as not burying them in whatever flavor of distortion you may prefer.... lots of feedback kills image depth, easy test with an SPL meter, genius ( mindful designer ) Roger Modjeski designed RM-9 with variable feedback :-) ears are required
@dtapo
You may have already answered your own question, comparing first hand. Trust your ears. Maybe there is some magic in the distortion and 2nd and 3rd order harmonics.   

Gotta ask oneself why many of the high-end class A solid state designers and amp builders continue to try and build circuits and test various output transistor types to try and make their amps sound like valve tube amps. Getting closer, not fully 3D or as layered yet.