"Musical" subwoofers? Advice please on comparing JL subs

Well, first let's throw away the words that don't have a definitive definition, like music, timbre and beauty. Everything we hear is just a set of frequencies. How we interpret them is another thing. One person's "music" is another person's "noise". One person's "brassy" is another person's "strident". One person's "nuance" is another person's "out of tune". And resonance is something that depends on your particular speaker or instrument's natural frequency of vibration. You either hear a frequency or you don't.

The human ear hears above 20Hz. So it hears as well as feels the piano's 28Hz. It generally feels mostly in the 50-100Hz area, however this depends on the individual and things like their chest cavity and even body fat levels. 

As to the Steinway versus the cheap piano, yes, they're both 'A' notes at 28 Hz. The fundamental frequency is the same because they're tuned the same. Given equal hammer strikes, it's everything after the vibration is created that makes the difference (enclosure physics, harmonics, scale length, microphone placement, etc.).

I know that doesn't answer your question, but I'm not sure there is an answer to your question, as most of it pertains to individual perception. Once you get past output level capabilities, the room actually has more to do with bass frequencies and how they're perceived. That's why understanding wave lengths in relation to subwoofer placement is useful.

And BTW, there is no such thing as a subwoofer with faster or slower bass. That's another common myth. Bass waves are already slow enough for any woofer to handle them.

I truly appreciate the answer but I ain't never going to "throw away .. music, beauty, and timbre." That's like saying that a poem is just organized words which are just signifiers operating arbitrarily in a system of differences. Sure, right, but we can still *experience* beauty in the arrangement of those words, and to give up on that is to live in a mechanistic world without, well, art. And that's no world I want to live in. (And contra many posts out here, beauty may be "culturally constructed" and contingent, but it's not nearly as subjective as people think.) 

Sigh. I feel like there must be an answer to my question, but maybe I'm wrong. We are drawn to speakers because they reproduce a range of frequencies in ways that are pleasing to us. They sound warm or inviting or thrilling or holographic or punchy or big or assertive or magical or whatever. It seems to me that subwoofers either do that or they don't; or it seems to me that there must be an hZ point at which we can begin to discern the sound we're looking for. If subwoofers don't reproduce an appealing image at, say, 80hZ-100hZ, then there's nothing for us to hear, only feel. But at some point up the frequency range we must be able to identify the signature, the sound, that we like. No?

So here's a question that should have an actual answer: at what hz point does the average human ear start to discern music, timbre, nuance?

Interesting question. In my opinion a single note is not music. To me music is a series of notes and rhythms structured together usually in some type of pattern. This can happen anywhere in the audible spectrum, so music would be all frequencies. Nuance probably is more open to interpretation. I feel nuance is more of a function of dynamics and is mostly affected by room acoustics including ambient noise, so in this case it also would fall anywhere in the audible spectrum. Timbre is one of the things that allows us to differentiate between instruments and I believe it is due to emphasis or de-emphasis of certain frequencies in the harmonic structure created by the vibration of the material that the instrument is made of so technically these also would cover the entire audible spectrum.  Now having said that, I believe that it is the higher frequencies that give us most of the cues that we use to help us specify what we hear. At what frequency does that start? I don’t know, but my guess would be at the point where we can start to localize where the sound is coming from. For discussions sake I will take that a step further and say most of the information we use to determine timbre and other aspects of sound happen between 400 Hz and 4k Hz. Frequencies below that, in my opinion, creates warmth and the sense of power and frequencies above create the sense of greater detail.

Back to your original post. 

if I were "very experienced" or had calibration tools, I could achieve similar results for much less money. (I'm not and I don't, but I also don't have the big bucks to throw around.)

Experience of course comes from doing, that is the same boat for all of us, but there are guys that have posted in this thread that can help you get started and send you down the correct path. As for calibration tools, this mic https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1, REW (a free download) and a computer, and you should be good to go.

Nothing to be a feared of, we are here to help.

I have two F110v2 and the CR-1. The e series came out after I bought them and I always had the same question. What makes the fathom so much more than the e series. I guess the DARO is the answer. Subs won’t do you much good if not calibrated properly. I used to have one F112 and the acoustic designer (acoustic frontiers) I was working with felt the DARO was a big upgrade over the v1 so that’s when i traded for the two 110v2. I was never confident in my ability to properly use the CR1 so I had him professionally calibrate. My opinion would be that if you are comfortable with calibrating the e series that should meet your needs. Adding the CR1 would be a big plus. If not, I would go for the more expensive fathom series since much easier to calibrate with DARO.

Merry Christmas Eve!
I have been following this thread closely.

northman:

I appreciate your question line, thoughtful responses, and how you reel people back on target.  I too am looking for a new pair of 'musical' subs.
I own a pair of REL Carbon Limiteds in my other system,  I love them. smooth and integrate well.  I want this level of performance and better.
My RELs's live in an easy room.  Big with open length, high ceiling, wood floors with wool rug.  I run Longbow wireless and use both a high level input form my mono amplifiers and a .1LFE input from a second AVR hooked up to a soundbar for TV.  It works flawlessly.  I get stereo music subs for music and augment the TV soundbar when watching.  Each are independently adjustable for level (not crossover) but the LFE .1 signal is of course managed within the AVR. 

Now I want to equal or best this level of subwoofer in my new reference system downstairs.  

First, a few comments on comments:

Speaker Placements and subwoofer locations:  I appreciate all the advice on where to position them, how to move them around the room and evaluate the sound and how 4 or more sound fantastic.  I make few 
compromises on equipment, but my room is my room.  I already gave the larger section of the bsmt to the model railroad, and the stereo area is what it is.  I can not move my couch back another inch.  It is 12 feet from the wall, with great space to the sides.  My speaker location has been optimized for this area.  I have treated the wall behind my head. I have a great spot for two subs, each located just inside of the stereo speakers and in line front to back.  My speakers are only 2 feet off the wall and image wonderfully.  So I think many people (most?) have to put things where the work, and repeated advice to cary my subs around is not practical unless I start digging a new foundation for basement expansion. (hmmm..bigger train layout?).

Musical or not?:  Please.  Musical means something to any audiophile and it can be individual.  But obviously we mean integrates well with a two channel system vs 'amazing slam' for AV soundtracks.  Inane to argue this point.  Bad bass is bad.  It has 'overhang' or is 'bloaty' or sounds 'slow'.  These are not physics terms.  so don't tear at them.  If you want to make a car bounce that is not 'musical' Does not have anything to do with the speed of a sound wave or the length.

Integration:  to me it means more than just getting the subs to match with the music.  They must support the music, and all its staging and imaging.  I have heard nice sounding subs in expensive systems.  When turned off, I can hear the soundstage widen and things sparkle more.
So the subs must integrate and support, and it is the quality of the crossover, the blending, And? perhaps the lack of EQ going on here.

External Crossovers:  I do have experience with smaller speakers and less powerful amplifiers.  And EQing the main channels to relieve bass information where a speaker can not handle it can certainly help. And it does relieve the amplifier of effort.  But this does not apply to all systems. My floor standing YG Hailey's have 10" subs in separate sealed cabinets.  My Audionet Amps never strain for power.  I run them full level with no EQ and always will.  YG quote's 20hz reach on the low end, but they still (to me) need a sub system to support the foundation of the music.  Stereo subs (to me) always enhance everything.  They just need to be integrated with great crossover and level adjustments.  When people hear my system they ask if the subs are on.  I then turn them off and they say 'oh wow they do add...'.  I know some guru's advocate crossing over the mains as well (Vandersteen?). But to me this adds another box and stuff and I do not believe all speakers and amps need it.

Remote control of Sub functions:  This is a feature I wish my REL Carbon Limited's had.  I find some tracks need a bit more, and some tracks definitely have too much bass in the mix.  My buddy has seen my arse too many times as I reach behind the REL subs, try to remember in mirror image which is level, and try to adjust with a specific number of indent clicks to equally adjust both subs.  Then later I put them back where they usually live.  The top two REL subs do have this remote control.  It should be on the Carbon Limiteds and the new Carbon Specials.  If I buy a pair I am sure the feature will be on the next year's model!
Many other companies do have remote control, usually through a phone app,  this would be a great thing, even if I only use it occasionally on individual tracks.

REL quality:  It is great.  I do not care if their value line is designed my another parent company. I wish every company was individually owned by its original guru. But alas this is not the way of the world. YG's founder and designer has sold the company.  Good for him.  Did it make me pause before purchase? Yes, for a minute. But his departure does not lessen the quality or performance of my speakers one bit. The fit finish and build quality of my Carbon Limited's is amazing.  Anyone can find an excuse to not purchase high end things.  

High Level Inputs; (REL, MJ, others?)  sounds better.  I have tried and evaluated vs low level preamp inputs.  Gotta have it.

Stereo vs one:  sounds better (looks cool also :).  Sure bass is relatively non directional.  Try this.  Go in any room with one sub.  Close your eyes and listen,  Can you locate the sub?  I can.  If only room for one so be it.  But we do have two stereo main speakers... and there is stereo information in bass information (not talking about LFE or .1 here).  Stereo subs SUPPORT the soundstage and imaging.  Not sure if Swarmy subs do this all over the room or not.  Seems dubious.

MJ Acoustics:  Looks interesting.  Uses High Level inputs like REL and has remote app control. 100% sourced and built in England (I hope that does not offend anyone). They are purists and as such to NOT offer EQ circuitry. 

EQ of bass:  this is the big decision for me.  My basement room seems to get a boom on heavy mixed bass tracks.  Do I have an issue with specific frequency?  I need to find out.  Everyone says 'Treat the room, treat the room'.  I am very nice to my room actually.  Ha.
Seriously, I have just received my microphone with usb input from Parts Express and need to download software and run tests.  Should I use REW?  I also have located test tracks on Roon so that is my project.

But about EQ:  sure it may help integrate the sub in rooms that need it.
I will hear back all rooms need it.  But EQ of anything comes at a cost.
Without getting into the argument of how tone controls affect sound quality, suffice it to say some of us are purists, and choose not to "mess with the signal" in any way that we do not need.  Don't blast this please. Or my KS cables :).

So if I could have it all, I would want a fast articulate (is that musical?),  pair of subs that I know where they are going to sit already, with remote control of Filter and Level, and ?  the OPTION to use EQ or not, if assured it gets completely out of the way when not desired.  That is probably a big 'if'.  they must have a quality filter that starts low (20 HZ not 35Hz).

Measure the Room:  I am taking this advise, because a lot flows from finding out if I have a boom at a certain Hz level.  If I do, can I trap it out?
I don't think I have the room, as from what I read I need sizable space behind a trap to effectively eliminate the standing waves or whatever causes the boom or bloat.  But if care this much I certainly need to at least measure the room.  Other wise I should just buy the JL Audio Fathoms, run the auto EQ and call it a day.  But many experienced listeners do not recommend the JL over REL, MJ Acoustics and others.
The microphone costs $85 and the software is free, so why not?

I have what I consider a dream system, and want my subs to match.
I wish I could compare several pairs, but that is either not possible or what a pain.  I am tired of lugging subs up and down stairs as well!

Sorry for my long reply!  I am as yet still undecided on what to purchase but taking my time.  For now the Carbon Limiteds do sound wonderful, with occasional need for level adjustment.  But they are gong back upstairs!

Merry Christmas!  Ken