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16 ohm speakers: any amp sounds better with more resolution. speaker cables less critical.

First,
  
Thanks to anyone who responds with whatever answers/opinions/advice comes from this. I'm retired, covid bound, Donna is taking care of everything holiday related, too much time, always curious.
..................................

I happened across this in an old thread started by Ralph (atmasphere)

"Sixteen ohms, BTW is a very simple means for getting more resolution out of your system, as nearly every amplifier made sounds better on 16 ohms than it will on 4 or 8 ohms. Speaker cables become far less critical too."

My speakers are 16 ohms (Electrovoice horn tweeter, horn mid, 15" woofer, crossover, rheostats, from 1958).
Extremely efficient, I have more than enough power. Amp, now and in the past all had 16 ohm taps.
Of course I can hook them up to my Cayin's 8 ohm taps now and listen, but facts, opinions, advice, to learn is good.
...........................


Lots of Questions? 

1. why/how do 16 ohm speakers make amps sound better, with more resolution? 

2. why speaker cables less critical? perhaps this is why I/we don't hear cable differences in my system?
I'm using my homemade twisted pair of cat 5 now (8 individually insulated small diameter solid core).

3.  to get exterior bias control: use 8 ohm tap for my 16 ohm speakers? (get alternate amp 4/8 no 16 tap,)

lose advantage(s)? 'sounds better'; 'more resolution'; 'speaker cables less critical'? 

this says slightly more mids:

http://blog.hughes-and-kettner.com/ohm-cooking-101-understanding-amps-speakers-and-impedance/

I can fine tune my speakers via their two rheostats: 'presence' and 'brilliance', so not really an issue for me.

4. Importance of Bias Control

how important is Bias? (I don't care about heat, power output, or tube life, just as bias affects sound). Frankly, using vintage tube receiver Fisher 500C, 800C and Fisher Mono Blocks 80Z, I have never checked or adjusted bias. I just put the control in the center position when cleaning insides/controls.

I have always used 16 ohm taps of various vintage tube and SS amps and newer current tube Cayin A88T. (original version, the only one with 16 ohm taps). It's bias control is internal, versions with safer external bias do not have 16 ohm taps.

5. replace their two rheostats? ('presence' and 'brilliance': copper wire-wound on ceramic body, mid/neutral position).
I have them in neutral position now, l/r frequency response equal.   

do I need to keep rheostats 16 ohms? use 8 ohm rheostat with 16 ohm drivers?

sales sheet says 16 ohm, but data sheet shows range 1.0 to 5k ohms. 

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/303/controls_rheostats-1228697.pdf

does that mean, the drivers will draw whatever they draw (varies thru frequency range anyway), doesn't matter as long as rheostat range starts 1.0 ohm, extends past say 100.0 ohms?

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/303/controls_rheostats-1228697.pdf

...........................................


thanks, Elliott











elliottbnewcombjr
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
When Miles wanted to be mellow he would point the trumpet down and possibly use a mute. When he wanted to let you have it he would point the trumpet right at you and fire away. It was up to the musician. It is mostly speakers that make trumpets sound harsher than normal.

Raul the JC1 has been superseded y the JC1+ which is now readily available. It is very similar but even larger and costs $16K a pair which is still dirt cheep in comparison to other amps of it's quality.

Ralph one thing the JC1 is not is harsh. It is one of the smoothest most effortless amps I have ever heard. Not that your MA2 is even better. The Sound Labs are certainly a match made in heaven with your MA2 given the extremely high impedance at low frequencies. I do believe this would give your amp more control/lower distortion at those frequencies. However I still believe in taking the deep bass away from ESLs. The diaphragms have a very limited Xmax. They get non linear easily creating distortion at higher frequencies never mind the doppler effect. The ESLs become even more effortless and higher sound pressure levels stay perfectly controlled and relaxed. Without subwoofers the ESLs will start sounding stressed at higher volumes. This is certainly the case with Acoustats. I can not see why it would be different with Sound Labs speakers. I will listen to them full range for a few days to see if this opinion holds. I do believe I listen at higher volumes than most people but I have discovered that with subwoofer I am quite satisfied 5 or so dB lower. Loudness compensation also helps a lot in this regard. 
My wife is my distortion meter. She will tolerate higher volumes with the subwoofers running:-)
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,250 posts
 
Hi Elliot, 
1 My speakers are Coincident Total Eclipse II and have a 14 ohm impedance (10 ohm minimum).
2 I played and studied trumpet many years ago in my youth and was not  a professional trumpeter by any stretch. But this experience was impactful and permanently sealed my admiration for skilled musicians (It isn't easy😊).
3 I'm not Korean. 
4  I can definitely understand your deep appreciation for Hugh Masekela. He was a master of the flugelhorn.

"Wonderful and warm sounding  trumpet" , exactly! 
As @ mijostyn observed, trumpets actually have a warmer tone live (No microphone Just pure horn) than speakers are capable of reproducing.  Such a good point as there's a slight harshness or edge imposed you'd never hear live and up close.
Charles 
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rauliruegas
13,101 posts
 
Dear @charles1dad : Agree, even D.GGuillespie can sounds a little warmer or B.Webster that’s his style but even that tenor sax at real SPL at 1-2m. sounds/performs agressive.

Yes, if we are seated in a club normally the players SPL goes according the site but this not the rule because if you listen a full orchestra as the D.Ellington live or other of that type sounds will be brigthness, sometyimes even harsh and sometimes can be a little warm ( in the DE solos. ).

You are a player and if you seat at the side of a concert piano player with a concert piano and he playing at real concert SPL that marvelous piano sound and especially the " rigth hand " you will listen it not only brigthness but several times harsh and yes depending of the score can sounds a little warmer.

Charles my point here is that we music lovers and audiophiles need it’s a must to have nerafield live MUSIC experiences to know the real kind of sounds that the recording microphones pick-up.

Many audiophiles are accustomed to tubes electronics and they just do not like : brigthness, harsh or agressive real kind of sounds that LIVE MUSIC has and in the other side is not only because of tubes but normally those audiophiles do not listen their systems at very high SPL as @mijostyn and many other audiophiles and that’s why their choose is tubes and not SS but overall ( no matters what. ) SS puts all of us nearer to the recording, tubes can’t do it because has to many limitations everywhere from the phono stage to amps.

I think that the best learning lessons we can have is to attend as more times we can to listen LIVE MUSIC ( any kind. ) seated at true nearfield position.

Btw, if I was at 1m. from your trumpet I will listen it at higher SPL that you that are the player.

I know several orchestra players and jazz band members where its ears were less sensitive for degradation through the time hearing very high SPLs than a normal audiophile. Music Directors too.

I love MUSIC and my prefered instrument is piano but in general I like every instrument and horns are no exception, Masekela that was named by Elliot is very good in his style and that kind of rythm.

Yes, a muted horn as the one from the great M.Davis can sounds sweet but that same muted horn can sounds with harsh too.

Now, MUSIC is not only jazz or classical exist other kimnd  as rock and disco music and people do not likes its agressivity and harsness but that's what it's and SS gives us exactly that.

Appreciated your post.

R.
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rauliruegas
13,101 posts
 
Dear @mijostyn : Agree, Soundlabs as any other passive speakers needs a self powered subwoofers, quality differences  for the better is almost day and knigth for all the room/system. On the high pass filter I oprefers at 80hz and not higher than that but is open to test it through several listening sessions till subs are integrated as a unity with the main speakers.

Btw, how can any one that the JC-1 are harsh or brigth with oput listen it mated with top speakers, makes no sense for say the least.

R.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,851 posts
 
The diaphragms have a very limited Xmax. They get non linear easily creating distortion at higher frequencies never mind the doppler effect. The ESLs become even more effortless and higher sound pressure levels stay perfectly controlled and relaxed. Without subwoofers the ESLs will start sounding stressed at higher volumes. This is certainly the case with Acoustats. I can not see why it would be different with Sound Labs speakers.
Roger used to make the B1 subwoofer which was an ESL panel that, if you had a pair of them, sat between the A1s creating a wall of ESL from one side of the room to the other. Several of my customers have had this sort of setup, using an electronic crossover so there was no bass excursion on the mains. I seem to recall the crossover to be about 200Hz. By getting the bass off of the mains they got more transparent.


IMO there were tradeoffs- the problem being that the Sound Labs and MA-2s driving them were a pretty transparent system for which the crossover at the time was no match. Roger began to mess with the spacing on the sub, and the later versions seemed to get harder to drive on account of the spacing between the diaphragm and stator being increased (inverse square law...).


I like to play my system at some pretty high levels too. If you want the entrance of the gods into Valhalla to sound right, you can't pussyfoot around with the volume; Wagner scored a serious brass section at that point and its not the sort of thing you sleep to :)

Of course you understand that I spend far more time playing our own amps than I do most solid state amps, and by comparison my comments are correct. I concede there is a perspective issue afoot!


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