Living with unsolvable hum - Any audio detectives out there?


For over a year I have put up with a hum in my system, coming through the speakers (not chassis hum). I cannot make it go away. It seems to be related to the preamp because it stops when I replace the preamp. But I had my local tech hook up the preamp on his bench and it is quiet as a mouse. I've also corresponded with its designer, David Berning, who has been very responsive and helpful. But no luck solving it. I thought it may be related to the separate power supply's umbilical but David Berning said likely not. Earlier this year I even bought a star grounding component from Granite Audio and connected everything to it. Didn't work. After trying everything the engineer at Granite could think of (he was great), he was stumped too. These people have forgotten more than I'll ever know about the subject, so I gave up at that point and just lived with it. I had also tried everything they and a few knowledgeable friends have suggested (see below). But now I would like to take another swing at solving it. Any ideas? What kills me is that now I can't recall when it started, which would be very helpful to diagnose. The system sounds as good as I've ever had it now, and I LOVE the Berning preamp. So replacing it or other major components is not an attractive proposition for me.

For any intrepid detectives, here are the facts:

- Hum is typical 60 cycle sound- both channels equal volume of hum- loud enough to hear at the listening position, but just barely. Quite noticeable when standing at the rack.
- Hums with any source, not volume dependent, still hums with no source components attached (I even tried unplugged them from the wall too). But the hum stops if preamp is disconnected from amps.
- System plugs into a dedicated 20 amp line with eight plugs. Nothing else is on this circuit except my audio system. I had an electrician verify and tighten all the ground connections. The service is a relatively new 200 amp service. The electrician tested and found no ground issues or noise in the dedicated line.
- Tried shutting down all breakers in the house except my dedicated audio line. No effect, surprisingly. I had high hopes for that one!
- Tried cheater plug on everything including the preamp. No effect.
- Tried different interconnects between pre and power amps... No effect.
- Replaced all linestage tubes. No effect.
- Moved components around, moved the power supply, even used long interconnects to move the preamp three feet in front of the rack. No effect.
- Tried an extension cord to plug the preamp into a different AC circuit. No effect.
-The only thing I know of that could try, but have not tried, is replacing the power supply tubes, but I didn't bother because on the bench it made no noise for my tech.

My system:
- Power: Temporarily I'm using a Shunyata T6000 distributor (the hum existed prior to this, and the Shunyata didn't solve it). All Cardas Golden Ref or Golden power cords, except T6000 is plugged into the wall with Shunyata Sigma HC cord.
Analog: Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, Jelco TK-850, Cardas Golden Cross phono cable
Digital: CEC transport and Audio Logic DAC, Golden Cross interconnect.
Preamp: Custom Berning Octal tube preamp with separate tube rectified switching power supply, built-in Jensen transformer MC stage at 24x gain (on the high side, I know, but it sounds amazing compared to other winding options)
-Power amps: Quicksilver v4 monos with KT150 tubes
-Two REL G2 subs (hum existed before them, and persists when they are disconnected and unplugged)
Somehow the interaction between the preamp and other components seems to be creating the problem. Source components don't seem to matter, but amps are Quicksilver v4 monos. Speakers are Verity Audio Parsifals. Interconnects, speaker cables and power cables are Cardas Golden Cross.
Speakers: Verity Audio Parsifal Encores. No surround sound or home theater.

montaldo
I have found that most elusive hum is due to DC components that tide on AC.  Unfortunately it can come from just about anywhere in your local grid - basically anyone connected to your shared power utility transformer.  It can come from your next door neighbor that is using an electrical wall heater (half-wave rectifier), hot tub heater, microwave, clothes dryer, dimmers with an SCR... too many sources to list here.  Unbalanced AC lines just are evil.  You can also check your cable or satellite grounds.  They don't have to be in circuit to cause hum issues.  Installation techs just look for the easy way, not necessarily the proper way to find earth.  Then again, I once found a persistent system hum due to an interconnect pair that had telescoped grounds with one connected in opposition to its brother.

Hums suck.  Big time.
Hi Montaldo,

You received good advice to "process of eliminate" the possible 60 hz hum and possible narrow this to the preamp.

One of my other hobbies is amateur radio and after reading your trails, this reminded me of what I have been doing for my stereo system, which like you, I did all the same recommendations you did to no avail.

In amateur radio, we use common mode chokes (CMCs) to eliminate man made noise. These are VERY VERY easy and cheap to build (buy the right toroid donut, wind your coax (for antennas) or your power cords (as in your preamp power cord around the toroid donut....plug and play...you will either solve it or not.

I had a LOT of man made noise entering my ham radio receiver (noise signal 7 to 10)...it was ridiculous...but I have have solar panels over my garage (where my ham gear is; and also close to my music room with the stereo gear, btw), over 75 computing / wireless devices in my house (I am in AI neural research for Alzheimer’s and build a lot of stuff).

I first replaced 7 shops lights in my garage that had the old ballast and replaced with LED non ballast shop lights. Ballasts transmit a LOT of noise into all radio gear. Man made noise reduced to signal 5 to Signal 7, but still very unacceptable. I then installed mu metal covers over my solar convertor boxes and EV vehicle transformer boxes (located in the garage). Not much help.

I then asked for help on eham.net (my ham radio Internet club); the older guys told me to try building inexpensive toroids for my antenna coax (transmission line) and my power cords that power all my ham gear.....this made a big difference...i am now down to normal atmospheric noise with Signal 1 to 3....more than acceptable.

After going through these experiments, I decided try using my spare toroid donuts with my stereo gear (which happens to share an adjacent wall to my garage...go figure).

Stereo Equipment

SOTA turntable / ET2 tone arm / Shelter 901 mk3 ---> Wavestream Kinetics phono tube preamp --> Wavestream Kinetics line tube amp --> Nelson Pass passive analog crossover (bi amp output):

--> Nelson Pass full range / mid crossover outputs --> Moore Franklin Associates (MFA) 200Cs tube amps --> Linkwitz LX Mini full range speakers

--> Nelson Pass low/mid crossover outputs --> Audio Research D100Bs solid state amp ---> Linkwitz LX Mini mid/low driver.


Experienced the 60 cycle hum occurred as you have experienced.


Like you, I narrowed down the equipment issue and eventually all data pointed to the Audio Research D100a amp as the "possible cause". I eventually turned the D100A into Scott Frankland (of MFA fame and now Wavestream Kinetics fame...he still actively building and repairing gear in San Jose, Ca...not far from me). He changed some of the power supply filter caps and didn’t get any more 60 cycle hum noise on HIS bench...except when I put the D100A back into MY house/system...like you, I experienced the 60 cycle hum.

After performing my ham radio ferrite donut noise reduction experiments, I thought, what the heck, I have two spare ferrite donuts...I am going to wind the D100A power amp cord around one of the ferrite donuts.

Sure enough...I reduced about 60% of the 60 cycle hum = my power amp cord is acting like a receiving antenna and picking up noise either from all my research equipment, wireless devices, or computers in the house/garage or other stereo gear.

The ferrite donut is a common mode choke (CMC); these have been around for a LONG time and are used in many of the power supply conditioners.....

Below is the pdf link to common mode chokes (this is an amateur radio piece so you will read colloquialisms pertinent to two way (transmit /receive) equipment; don’t be scared or concerned). Document is on what, why, where, and how to build common mode chokes.

http://www.yccc.org/Articles/W1HIS/CommonModeChokesW1HIS2006Apr06.pdf



Read page 7

Why Use Common-Mode Chokes? The most common reasons for using common-mode chokes are: (1) to reduce the fraction of the RF power that is fed to your antenna from your transmitter, but then is conducted back to your shack via common-mode current on your feedline, causing RFI trouble in the shack or elsewhere in your house; (2) to keep the transmitted RF power that 60-Hz power, telephone, TV, and other cables in the field of your antenna pick up, from bothering susceptible devices connected to these cables in your own and neighbors’ houses; and (3) to keep the RF noise that all the electronic devices in your house generate, from being conducted via 60-Hz power, telephone and other cables to the outer shield of your radio, and from there along your feedline(s) to your antenna(s), in common-mode.


(more info in the document...but the point is your preamp power cord "may" be picking up the 60 cycle transmitted noise from other household devices....in YOUR environment and not in the shops where you had your gear tested/serviced.


Read page 9 where to install common mode choke


Best part....you can build this for about $25 in parts and 10 minutes of your time. If it doesn’t work....well it is much cheaper then other next options like hiring an electrician or replacing your power conditioner, which you already know is not likely going to solve this issue.

The best price for ferrite toroid donuts is here:

https://www.kf7p.com/KF7P/Ferrite_chokes.html


Yes, an amateur radio site, but cheaper then the mouser / digikey.

I specifically purchased the "Monster toroid mix 31" for $25.


You basically wrap your preamp power cord around this ferrite donut...as shown in the pictures.....I recommend about 16 winds if you have enough preamp power cable length....YMMV and you many need to experiment...but it is cheap!

My Audio Research D100 did not have a long enough cable, so I purchased a good quality extension cable and wrapped this around the ferrite donut. One end of the power cable donut went into the wall outlet. The other end went into the D100A power cord = 60% reduction in 60 cycle hum.

My next experiments

a. increase the number of winds around my existing donut for the D100a
b. I have another monster ferrite donut mix 31...and I will probably wind the power supply cord driving my Sota turntable.
c. observe 60 noise...and continue adding donuts to other stereo gear...especially anything with a walwart like device... until I reach diminishing returns.

Good luck!

Stu
WB6YRW
Google photo link to some of my ferrite "donuts"


https://photos.app.goo.gl/GPdtYtB66gNJPtP49

The "donut" on the carpet with the black power cord picture is what I am experimenting with for the D100A amp.

You may need to start hunting and unplugging other household devices (walwarts, computers, lights with transformers, etc.) as you listen to your stereo system (scientific method, one by one approach)....experimenting is fun!
The issue is the ferrite toroidals are not very effective at 60hz. More likely they take out the effects of 120Hz events, like dimmer turn on but do little about 60Hz fundamentals. Hence a small isolation transformer on the preamp as a better test.  Attenuation at 60hz with that ferrite toroid will be near 0.
2 items I haven't seen mentioned:
1-Did you move your system to a new room?  I know it's not easy to say the least.  You could run a really long extension cord from another side of the house?  Not sure it will help.
2-Did you try different amps.  It might just be a compatibility issue.  Don't use that junk receiver but borrow a nice high output power amp.
Your system has great components but that doesn't mean the kids will all get along well.