Learning To Listen

millercarbon -

FYI - Tone is defined as a sound of definite pitch and vibration and
Bandwidth is defined as a range of frequencies within a given band, in particular that used for transmitting a signal.

Neither one of these definitions has anything to do with volume as you claim. 

One problem with your posts is it is hard to tell what you are saying.  I would have thought you knew a little more about what you are talking about and maybe you do.  You just lack the ability to write or say it correctly. 

With that in mind when I read your posts I will try to interpret your intent rather than go off what you actually write.  I do appreciate the other posts about learning to understand and interpret recorded sound which is certainly a learned skill. 

That said, what remains annoying to many is your presumed authority based on so many years experience and your degrading approach in communicating your beliefs.  You portray the image that you have heard it all and know what is best for everyone.  It appears from your writing and mannerisms you are an older person, perhaps north of 70 which is okay but perhaps not entirely.  

In that context I would like to ask you a couple questions. 
  
1.  Do you think the average 25 year old perceives sound the same as you?
2. Do you think you perceive sound the same as you did in 1990 when you first got into hifi?
3. Do you think you perceive sound the same way you did 5 years ago?
3. Do you think the subjective bias you show has any real value outside yourself? 
4. Do you think your opinions are relevant to a person who can actually hear a 16 kHz tone? 

Perhaps yes and perhaps no but certainly not always.  

 

    

Fact is it helps to be good listener if you are an audiophile.  Otherwise your card may be revoked. 

When you look at a piece of art by Robert Ryman, it’s impossible to understand it without knowing a little bit about art history and knowing that Ryman was reacting against the heroic nature of the abstract expressionists who preceded him. (It doesn’t make Ryman any better, IMHO, but at least you know what he was doing.)

Audio “journalism” is clearly part of the high end marketing machine but when they talk about a system placing the musicians in space with such precision, when they talk about the soundstage extending horizontally outside the range of the speakers, when they talk about a three dimensional soundstage in which some of the musicians are behind other musicians, I’m lost. 

Sometimes the piano comes more strongly out of the left side than the right. If I close my eyes and direct my thoughts towards the task, I can imagine the piano player being on the left side. But that’s not exactly what these “journalists” are talking about. 

(I used to be a journalist and I’m protective of the term. “Working together, it took company CEO and myself only two days to build and position the speakers.” Are you kidding me? Whoever is writing that nonsense shouldn’t even be allowed to use words that start with “J”.)

As I see it, there are three possibilities why this “journalist” sees precision that I can’t even begin to grasp: 1) My $3,000 system doesn’t buy me admission to this phenomenon, 2) It’s all BS, 3) I lack knowledge or understanding that the “journalist” has.


As to the first possibility, my LS50s are said to throw a soundstage so I don’t think that’s the problem. I’m not in a position, don’t have enough knowledge, to declare this to be BS. But there’s lots I don’t know, much like I could look at a Ryman and not know what he was trying to do.


MillerCarbon’s very presence has attracted much of the action (that guy must have some history on this forum) but he encourages me to learn the terminology. I know a good bit of the terminology and it doesn’t help. Others are referring me to out of date links. I appreciate the effort but the question I ask can’t be an obscure one. I can’t be the first person to run into this wall. Answers should abound. I should have found them myself with Google without ever resorting to this board. If ignorance is my problem, I shouldn’t need Daryl Wilson in my basement to find an answer.


I’ve been listening to music for 40 years played out of every form of reproduction in existence so I don’t think that lack of experience is my problem.


Someone please tell me that I haven’t stumbled into yet another area where men who are smart enough to accumulate enough money to blow 100K on a stereo system live in a world of illusion. What does acoustic science say on the subject? If I was at Juilliard, what would they teach me in my intro classes? Hasn’t KEF, so helpful in so many ways, published something?

MC sez ...

• "This is where a lot of the double-blind bias BS comes from. People who never learned to listen cannot hear anything there and so presume there really is nothing there. Prove it to me! They say. Learn to listen, you won’t need anyone to prove anything. You will know."

Bingo! 

I especially liked the driving analogy that MC put out there. Here's another one ... I see yahoos riding motorcycles and bicycles in a dangerous fashion all the time. These are street riders. In order to become a safe motorcyclist or bicyclists, one needs to not only learn how to just ride safely, but also learn how to get out of trouble, and how to recover from dangerous situations. When it comes to motorcycles, one should ride dirt bikes for a period of time before attempting to ride on the street. Becoming a competent dirt rider will save your pitui on the street.

When it comes to becoming a good listener in the audio hobby, one should become very familiar with live music. Pay attention to the tones of live instruments. Then, try to emulate those tones in one's audio system. 

Frank  

Light in the darkness:

https://audioengineusa.com/explore/what-is-a-soundstage/