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Help! Antiskate with only a weight...no dial, and she's skating away!

I have a project rpm 10 carbon with 10cc evolution tonearm that has a weight on a string for antiskate. There are three notches on which to attach the string based upon the tracking force range of the cartridge. I currently have an ortofon cadenza bronze tracking at 2.5g and have the antiskate weight in the appropriate notch (according to the Pro-ject manual) from which it hangs. The table is level--checked and adjusted to ensure. The tracking force is at 2.514g (the range for the cadenza is 2.2-2.7 with 2.5 suggested by ortofon) checked with a digital scale (Riverstone Audio digital scale). The soundstage sounds great, vocals are centered, other instruments are placed in space according to the recording... Also the alignment was carefully set up using the WallyTractor and is spot on. 

But sometimes when I lower the stylus to the lead in groove, it will slide very quickly towards the spindle as though no antiskate were present (it doesn’t skip over the record, it falls into the first song groove--and yes I have confirmed that the stylus is present). But it’s a big jump vs just sliding into the groove.

So I found a blank side of an album and lowered the stylus onto the surface and it immediately slid all the way across the surface towards the spindle as though no antiskate were in play. I then disengaged the antiskate weight and experienced the same (expectedly so). But there seemed to be little or no difference between antiskate being engaged/disengaged.

So I engaged the weight again and lowered the stylus, but this time I placed a little extra force on the weight with my finger and was able to get the tonearm to stay in position--applicable antiskate force in play with this extra force. Of course, I have no way of measuring how much extra weight I applied.

The help I need:
Why is the recommended antiskate parameters set by pro-ject seemingly having no effect?
Is something else wrong?
The table and tonearm are obviously manufactured to handle this level of VTF, no?
The tonearm wires don’t appear to be impeding the arm movement.
What can I do to remedy this?
Do I need to do something to remedy this?
I wonder if I’m causing harm to the cantilever with what appears to be no antiskate, yet the music sounds great and the Analogue productions test LP record antiskate tracks "sound" equal to my ears. (But my ears aren’t young anymore, so I don’t think I can place full confidence in that audible test).

Any thoughts, suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
cabalaska
lewm
12,560 posts
 
Mijo, my point is that most of us can’t know how much AS we’ve applied in terms of grams as a certain percentage of VTF. Even those old tonearms with numerical markings on the AS adjuster cannot be taken as units of anything. All one could say is that “5” is more than “4” unknown units of force. 
stringreen's avatar
stringreen
6,383 posts
 
Lewn....what I'm writing in my post above is that when listening, I can clearly hear that when using  skating with my VPI there is shrinking of stage, a closing of the spaces between the instruments, etc.   This may be because of my specific tonearm...I don't have other tonearms to compare.   I encourage all to listen to your system and determine for yourself  the effects of using a/s or not.  What I hear is subtle at first, but when recognized, it is quite clear.  If you can't hear a difference it makes no difference.
dover
2,187 posts
 
 If you can't hear a difference it makes no difference.
That statement is totally illogical.

mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,230 posts
 
@lewm, absolutely. It has always been arbitrary. I suppose that is why I like the spec of 9 to 11% of VTF. I know for certain what I am setting it to which is psychologically comforting. Certainly, skating is basically proportional to VTF. I think we all agree on that. Intervening factors such as modulation, geometry and a tiny degree speed move it one way or the other. I am not sure where the 9 to 11% figure comes from. I'll try to look into that. This all started with an Analog Planter review of the WallySkater which measures the anti skating force as a percentage of VTF. It is a flimsy plastic contraption (A nicely made one) that could be made in China for $10.00 but is sold for almost $300. So I set out to make a device with $45.00 worth of parts that would be easier to use and based it on the 9 to 10% figure Wally Tools uses. I'll get back.

@stringreen, I hate to tell you this but trying to put anti skating on that arm is like wrestling an alligator in a bathtub. You should trade it in for VPI's Gimbal Fat Boy tonearm. You will not hear much difference with or without anti skating until the right channel starts miss tracking on heavily modulated passages. You can overcome this by increasing VTF and thereby compound the problem of groove and record wear. Stare at the cantilever from the front of the tonearm. Line it up perfectly with the middle of the cartridge by adjusting your line of sight then lower the stylus onto the record with the lift. As the stylus contacts the record (this is with anti skate defeated) the cantilever will immediately appear to drift to the outside relative to the cartridge as it leans on the inside left channel groove wall. Does this seem like a good thing to you?
stringreen's avatar
stringreen
6,383 posts
 
mijostyn.....you seem to have a surfeit of opinion and not much awareness. I don’t need to be instructed on turntable setup, I’ve done it for over 40 years. I’ve personally owned an SME V. Grado Lab, ESL, Ortofon, Rega, Thorens, Helios, and probably other arms that don’t come readily to mind and have set up others. I write on these pages to relate information and thoughts that may or may not interest the audiophile community. I find things that may be out of the mainstream, but valuable never the less. With those that have a system that can discern the difference, I say that a/s does make a sonic difference...I just prefer no a/s and encourage others to experiment As for the value of the VPI arm....it actually is quite good: is easily adjustable in every parameter...and yes there is a sonic difference between the gimbaled version and the dual pivot. I prefer the dual pivot, so that is what I have. I know what misstracking sounds like, but with the hundreds of LP’s that I have, I don’t hear it. I thank those like MillerCarbon who introduced me to the Schumann Resonators....they are very helpful in my system...there are those like mijostyn that may scoff...
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