Would silver cables beat UP-OCC copper?

@dave_72 RE:...

Would silver cables beat UP-OCC copper?

The answer is
- it depends on the silver wire you are using and
- the resolution of your system

For example - I have used Mundorf Solid Silver with 1% gold inside cotton sleeve in my IC’s and changed to Neotech UP-OCC copper because I found it offered superior dynamics, details and imaging. It was so good that I have not considered changing it

However - you can also get UP-OCC silver, which I believe many people prefer to UP-OCC copper for it’s improved resolution capabilities

This is where the resolution of your system may be a factor - if your components cannot resolve to the same level as UP-OCC Silver then you may hear very little improvement.

Personally, I am more on the budget conscious side of this hobby, so I stopped at the UP-OCC Copper because it was so good, but others have tried UP-OCC Silver and prefer it.

Connectors can make a significant difference - I’ve found KLE Innovations Absolute Harmony to be the best to date

Insulation is another factor - insulation with a low dielectric Constant for best clarity and details - e.g.

1. - bare wire inside a Teflon tube is exceptional
2. - bare wire inside Cotton is next
3. - VH Audio UP-OCC Copper or Silver with Airlok insulation is one of the best insulated wires I have used
4. - Neotech UP-OCC copper or silver with Teflon Insulation

And definitely solid wire (as opposed to stranded wire)

Unfortunately some of the above are not an option if you are buying ready made commercially available products.

That’s why I make my own :-)

Hope that helps - Steve

@williewonka 

Is 1 (bare wire with Teflon) better than 4 (Neotech UPP-OCC copper or silver with Teflon) insulation? Just seeing if you listed these randomly or ranked them from 1 being the best, and 4 being the least best. Thanks. 

Audioquest4life 

@audioquest4life - seems to make no sense, correct?

The short answer - any wire with insulation applied directly to it is worse than bare wire in Teflon tube

But the long answer - if interested...

In a capacitor the dielectric is applied directly to a plate or foil.

In order to get a consistent capacitance every part of the plate or foil must be in contact with the dielectric

So with an insulated wire the insulation is effectively the dielectric and applied to the entire surface area of that wire

• all insulations have a specific Dielectric Constant (Dk)
• Teflon is 2.2
• Foamed Teflon (i.e. AirLok) is 1.45
• Cotton is 1.3
• Air is 1.1
• Vacuum is the base measurement at 1.0

If you use a bare wire in a Teflon tube, where the inside diameter of the tube is larger than the diameter of the wire, there will be space (i.e. AIR) around the wire and because the tube does not collapse around the wire (like cotton does) the wire only ever touches the tube in one spot.

• so the "effective Dk" of Bare wire in Teflon tube is very close to 1.1
• that’s why I rated it #1

I first realized this when I read about and tried Dulund tinned copper in Cotton/oil

• but it made no sense it sounded better than many other great wires
  
• the wire is tinned copper and I was using silver plated copper, which should have performed better.
• then I learned about Dk - and even though the Dulund had a conductor that rated lower in conductance, the insulation provided better clarity
• I then tried Bare wire in a larger Teflon tube and the results were stunning

So why does the insulation impact sound - well, I have no real hard core evidence, just what my ears tell me about the sound.

Here’s my thoughts

• A capacitor is an electrical component that draws energy from a battery and stores the energy. Inside, the terminals connect to two metal plates separated by a non-conducting substance.
• the dialectic becomes "charged"
• When "activated", a capacitor releases electricity in a tiny fraction of a second.
  
• So a wire is "equivelent to" a single plate with a dielectric applied to it
• and as the "AC signal" passes through the wire...
• in the +ve polarity part of the signal, it will charge the insulation in one direction
• when the signal changes to the -ve polarity, it charges the charge held by the insulation in the opposite direction,
• BUT the stored energy in the insulation from the +ve cycle is released.
• This release of energy interferes with the signal in the wire and you get TINY DISTORTIONS !
• reducing the Dk of the insulation reduces the amount of charge held by the insulation and consequently distortion is reduced
• With distortion reduced, you get a clearer signal
• But remember there are two channels - so with the two signals having more clarity the overall image will become more spacious and have improved focused.

As I said - these are my thoughts based on what my ears tell me

• That and $5.-- will get you a fancy millennial coffee (I hope)

Apologies for the long post, but wires and insulations get very complicated :-)

Regards - Steve

In recent years, I have been able to participate in a variety of Cable Demonstrations and Comparisons for the use of Phono 5 Pin DIN >RCA Terminated  IC's, Digital RCA Terminated IC's and Speaker Cables.

During two of the Three Comparison sessions there were additional attendees at the demonstration. 

I will offer a bit of info on my recollections of the different occasions.

At the Phono Cable Demonstration there was approx'  Eight Cables in the line up, all given a Three Track Demonstration in a Home System.
Two Silver Cables were available at a purchase price sitting close to the  middle price of the range of Copper Cables, the other Silver was the most expensive of all Cables. 
All attendees were most impressed with the Five Copper Cables over the Three Silver Cables, from recollection I was leaning towards a OCC Silver as a qualifier for a further investigation and potential use.
A Copper Cable was selected to be purchased by the systems owner.
A Copper Cable that was quite impressive to myself on this occasion,
had failed to make a similar impression in another system, after the recommendation was made for it.   

The Digital IC's were a line up of four, Three produced in Copper and One produced in Silver. 
The Silver was the most expensive, at close to a £ 1000.
In my system the Copper was the most attractive,  in all cables used the Silver did not make a impression to compete with the Copper.
A Copper Foil was the choice of IC made.

At a Speaker Cable Demonstration a Large choice of Speaker Cables were available, from Owned to Loaned in for the Demonstrations and Selection Purposes.

The end assessment was that there were a Copper and a Silver as the Cable types to be selected as a Purchase.
Each of these stood out as having quite a noticeable separation in SQ over the other Cables when used on the persons Home System
When compared to each other there were similarities and differences, with a noticeable weight to the Bass from the Silver.

Two Attendees purchased the Silver and are very satisfied with their choice to use Silver, I have heard the Silver on follow up occasions in both Systems and fully agree with the choices made.
I use the Copper Cable that was the Cable being used as the Comparison Cable to the Silver Cable that was chosen.

As said above there are variables at the interfaces that are unique to a system, these will prove to be of importance when a cables performance is being assessed.
A performance of a Cable and how the inter relation of a Device and Cable are being perceived for delivering a satisfactory and preferred SQ, is not easy to describe within a thread, experiencing the Cable Builds with the system of choice is a important part of the process.
    

@williewonka 
Not that you need any validation but Roger Skoff has long argued that cables are just another form of capacitors, though not intended to work that way.
https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/capacitors-speakers-cables-and-other-magic-stuff/

All the best,
Nonoise