Would silver cables beat UP-OCC copper?

@audioquest4life - seems to make no sense, correct?

The short answer - any wire with insulation applied directly to it is worse than bare wire in Teflon tube

But the long answer - if interested...

In a capacitor the dielectric is applied directly to a plate or foil.

In order to get a consistent capacitance every part of the plate or foil must be in contact with the dielectric

So with an insulated wire the insulation is effectively the dielectric and applied to the entire surface area of that wire

• all insulations have a specific Dielectric Constant (Dk)
• Teflon is 2.2
• Foamed Teflon (i.e. AirLok) is 1.45
• Cotton is 1.3
• Air is 1.1
• Vacuum is the base measurement at 1.0

If you use a bare wire in a Teflon tube, where the inside diameter of the tube is larger than the diameter of the wire, there will be space (i.e. AIR) around the wire and because the tube does not collapse around the wire (like cotton does) the wire only ever touches the tube in one spot.

• so the "effective Dk" of Bare wire in Teflon tube is very close to 1.1
• that’s why I rated it #1

I first realized this when I read about and tried Dulund tinned copper in Cotton/oil

• but it made no sense it sounded better than many other great wires
  
• the wire is tinned copper and I was using silver plated copper, which should have performed better.
• then I learned about Dk - and even though the Dulund had a conductor that rated lower in conductance, the insulation provided better clarity
• I then tried Bare wire in a larger Teflon tube and the results were stunning

So why does the insulation impact sound - well, I have no real hard core evidence, just what my ears tell me about the sound.

Here’s my thoughts

• A capacitor is an electrical component that draws energy from a battery and stores the energy. Inside, the terminals connect to two metal plates separated by a non-conducting substance.
• the dialectic becomes "charged"
• When "activated", a capacitor releases electricity in a tiny fraction of a second.
  
• So a wire is "equivelent to" a single plate with a dielectric applied to it
• and as the "AC signal" passes through the wire...
• in the +ve polarity part of the signal, it will charge the insulation in one direction
• when the signal changes to the -ve polarity, it charges the charge held by the insulation in the opposite direction,
• BUT the stored energy in the insulation from the +ve cycle is released.
• This release of energy interferes with the signal in the wire and you get TINY DISTORTIONS !
• reducing the Dk of the insulation reduces the amount of charge held by the insulation and consequently distortion is reduced
• With distortion reduced, you get a clearer signal
• But remember there are two channels - so with the two signals having more clarity the overall image will become more spacious and have improved focused.

As I said - these are my thoughts based on what my ears tell me

• That and $5.-- will get you a fancy millennial coffee (I hope)

Apologies for the long post, but wires and insulations get very complicated :-)

Regards - Steve

In recent years, I have been able to participate in a variety of Cable Demonstrations and Comparisons for the use of Phono 5 Pin DIN >RCA Terminated  IC's, Digital RCA Terminated IC's and Speaker Cables.

During two of the Three Comparison sessions there were additional attendees at the demonstration. 

I will offer a bit of info on my recollections of the different occasions.

At the Phono Cable Demonstration there was approx'  Eight Cables in the line up, all given a Three Track Demonstration in a Home System.
Two Silver Cables were available at a purchase price sitting close to the  middle price of the range of Copper Cables, the other Silver was the most expensive of all Cables. 
All attendees were most impressed with the Five Copper Cables over the Three Silver Cables, from recollection I was leaning towards a OCC Silver as a qualifier for a further investigation and potential use.
A Copper Cable was selected to be purchased by the systems owner.
A Copper Cable that was quite impressive to myself on this occasion,
had failed to make a similar impression in another system, after the recommendation was made for it.   

The Digital IC's were a line up of four, Three produced in Copper and One produced in Silver. 
The Silver was the most expensive, at close to a £ 1000.
In my system the Copper was the most attractive,  in all cables used the Silver did not make a impression to compete with the Copper.
A Copper Foil was the choice of IC made.

At a Speaker Cable Demonstration a Large choice of Speaker Cables were available, from Owned to Loaned in for the Demonstrations and Selection Purposes.

The end assessment was that there were a Copper and a Silver as the Cable types to be selected as a Purchase.
Each of these stood out as having quite a noticeable separation in SQ over the other Cables when used on the persons Home System
When compared to each other there were similarities and differences, with a noticeable weight to the Bass from the Silver.

Two Attendees purchased the Silver and are very satisfied with their choice to use Silver, I have heard the Silver on follow up occasions in both Systems and fully agree with the choices made.
I use the Copper Cable that was the Cable being used as the Comparison Cable to the Silver Cable that was chosen.

As said above there are variables at the interfaces that are unique to a system, these will prove to be of importance when a cables performance is being assessed.
A performance of a Cable and how the inter relation of a Device and Cable are being perceived for delivering a satisfactory and preferred SQ, is not easy to describe within a thread, experiencing the Cable Builds with the system of choice is a important part of the process.
    

@williewonka 
Not that you need any validation but Roger Skoff has long argued that cables are just another form of capacitors, though not intended to work that way.
https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/capacitors-speakers-cables-and-other-magic-stuff/

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise - thank you for that link - I just wished I had seen it when it was published. It would have save me a lot of time :-)

I guess my first learning experience WRT cables and the effects/impacts of capacitance was around 10 years ago - I purchased a NAIM amp and they state on their web site that speaker cables having high capacitance will damage their amps, due to oscillation.

But my thought process at that time was focused more on the capacitance between the two conductors - which is more akin to a capacitor and probably responsible for the change in tonality

It wasn’t until more recently that I applied some thought as to how the signal in the wire could be impacted by the insulation of that wire. Which proved to be more of an impact to clarity and details

This became very apparent once I had tried the same wire with different insulations in my Interconnects,

• where the ONLY thing that changed was the insulation of the signal wire.
• all wires were UP-OCC copper of the same gauge
• All other wires and connectors were unchanged

The results: as Dielectric Constant of the insulation decreased each time

• improvements in clarity and details were observed
• improvements in image size and precision were observed because the signals in both L & R channels were more accurately being reproduced, hence recreating the original "image".

This paragraph from the article sums up nicely the impact an insulation of a wire has on the signal...

Because this energy, once stored, is released back into the signal path out of phase with the incoming signal, either canceling incoming increments of signal or creating out-of-phase discharge artifacts, this is hugely important and is, in itself, proof that cables or any other capacitor in your system can make a difference to its sound.

Thanks again for the article - it's good to have "the Why's" confirmed

Cheers - Steve

@williewonka,

Thank you for the elaborate and detailed response. Your description of the cables with a Teflon outer jacket makes me think of my own custom length Tempo Electric silver ICs with oversized Teflon jackets. The ends are silver WBTs. I use these cables between the preamp and amps. Have been using them for about 14 years now. My default IC for German Octave MRE130, Bryston 4BSST, and now McIntosh MC2301 amps. 
Interestingly, my experience using silver and copper ICs started years ago with OEM Neotech cables. A dealer I met had a variety of Neotech OEM spools laying around and made me several incarnations of these cables when I asked him for some samples. I thought the copper Neotech ICs with copper WBTs sounded the most accurate on triangles and on mid range brass sounding instruments. The silver Neotechs with silver WBTs sounded exactly as others have experienced,,,sounding more zippy on the high end, but, at the same time, I felt as if the mid triangle was nearly, or the same as the copper, but the highs seemed to be a little more emphasized. I believe this perceived sound difference is why some prefer one type of cable over the other (individual gesmach and system composition).  I spent months going back and forth until I just stayed with the silver cables. 
The silver and copper Neotech cables had been my reference point over other cables I have tried for many years. I felt like generals kicking out lieutenants from briefings when vendors came over to demonstrate their high end cables, and I stated, system sounds worse, not interested. For me, thou shall not tell me that I need to allow for cable break in to hear any differences. One should invariably hear something or not, simple as that, and the quality of playback should not  sound less, or cause you to perceive it sounding worse. Some vendors may even say that your cables you own are so bad, that your ears need to adjust to the new cables. Let’s not go down that rabbit hole. 


Recently, I went against the grain of simple cables and ordered Audioquest Fire XlRs between the phono amp and preamp and ordered Analysis Plus Apex Silver phono cable. The Audioquest replaced my Neotech silver ICs and the Analysis Plus replaced my Silver Breeze phono cables with silver WBTs. The Silver Breeze is a simple silver wire with minor outer shielding. So far, all seems to be very quiet with some noticeable improvement in low level details. The Audioquest Fires will stay in place for a while and I will swap in the Neotech silver ICs between preamp and phono to see if I perceive anything glaringly different. If not, it is a shame that simple cable designs, such as pure copper or silver core with an oversized outer Teflon jacket are not more readily spoken of. I do follow the DIY community in another forum, but, that seems like it’s the Underground, LOL. 

Ciao,
Audioquest4life