Do yourself a favor and go listen to some Tannoys. I think that once you do, you will be hooked. That dual concentric driver is a beauty. I got the Eaton legacy and they are all I will ever need.
Speakers most critical component, , now what fq's are most critical in speakers
So now that we have established that speakers are the vocal chords of a system, thus making speakers the single most important component in any high fidelity system.
We need to open discussions of what fq's should we be ~most~ concerned about in deciding which speakers offer the highest fidelity within this hz range?
Bass 20hz-30hz, Can we just let this go for a moment, As there is really not much in classical within this range, Jazz you do have drum sets going on, its not all that much to be missed.
So really bass begins to be critical at 40hz.
High fq's, ,,,again is there really much happening in the highest registers in classical? Not really. jazz has snares and other percussion, but again, hardly much to make any dif if missed out in the say 12k+ hz registers.
I know Richard Gray did mention, although there might not seem to be much going on in the highest hz area, its the ~ambience~ which a high quality tweeter brings into the recorded sound. I agree.
Now we are left with the rest, the wide midrange area. Which represents 90%++ of our music.
lower mid-bass, starting at 50hz - 200hz
Low midrange 200hz-say 500hz
Mids 500hz-1khz
upper mids 1k-3k+++
These are rough figures
Point is, should we be so concerned about the 20-40hz's, when basically only less than 1% of the recordings possess this fq range. 1%, who really cares if it is not ~there~.
Now for the highest fq's, well again, should we really be so concerned how high a tweeter can voice?
The one design that strikes me as fulfilling this super critical midrange voicing with fidelity and a seamless wide band soundstage is the design callled high sensitivty wide band driver, otherwise known as ~The Full Range~
There is no so called ~mid`tweeter~ that can match the performance of these same fq's when compared to a high quality FR single source.
From the low mid bass all the way to highest upper mids, the FR just has a much larger voice coil and cone area for dispersion.
Mid tweeters are a failure, Including both Seas Flagships The Millenium and The Cresendo. When heard next to a quality FR .
With this single source wide band driver, no additional tweeter is needed.
Now in the low bass, say 30-80hz, it is recommended adding some sort of bass modual.
Which will bring in another dimension making the bass floor, more richer and dynamic, eliminates a sense of ~flatness~ about a single source's voicing.
Now I've not heard the single source drivers from the 2 highest labs. My guess is both labs also will benifit from added bass configure.
So now we need to look at what bass configures voice the cleanest, low distortion, sublime and subtle.
For this task, I recommend you look at Seas Excel either the older Magnesium Cone or the newst Magnesium cone called Graphene, which are like 50% more cost, Not sure if its worth it.
The ideal size will either be dual W18's, or a single W22, maybe even a W26.
This Magnesium cone material is so sublime in the 40-60hz's, that hardly any driver on the market will match it. With the copper phase plug. Not a neodymium magnet, but still packs a gorgeous tight rich 40-60hz bass , and voicing the low mids with pure clean fidelity. Pricey but worth it.
Capacitor for the Excel midwoofers should be Mundorf SilverGold Supreme of if you can afford it SESGO. 2X's the price of reg supreme. Superior vs their Aluminum model.
We need to open discussions of what fq's should we be ~most~ concerned about in deciding which speakers offer the highest fidelity within this hz range?
Bass 20hz-30hz, Can we just let this go for a moment, As there is really not much in classical within this range, Jazz you do have drum sets going on, its not all that much to be missed.
So really bass begins to be critical at 40hz.
High fq's, ,,,again is there really much happening in the highest registers in classical? Not really. jazz has snares and other percussion, but again, hardly much to make any dif if missed out in the say 12k+ hz registers.
I know Richard Gray did mention, although there might not seem to be much going on in the highest hz area, its the ~ambience~ which a high quality tweeter brings into the recorded sound. I agree.
Now we are left with the rest, the wide midrange area. Which represents 90%++ of our music.
lower mid-bass, starting at 50hz - 200hz
Low midrange 200hz-say 500hz
Mids 500hz-1khz
upper mids 1k-3k+++
These are rough figures
Point is, should we be so concerned about the 20-40hz's, when basically only less than 1% of the recordings possess this fq range. 1%, who really cares if it is not ~there~.
Now for the highest fq's, well again, should we really be so concerned how high a tweeter can voice?
The one design that strikes me as fulfilling this super critical midrange voicing with fidelity and a seamless wide band soundstage is the design callled high sensitivty wide band driver, otherwise known as ~The Full Range~
There is no so called ~mid`tweeter~ that can match the performance of these same fq's when compared to a high quality FR single source.
From the low mid bass all the way to highest upper mids, the FR just has a much larger voice coil and cone area for dispersion.
Mid tweeters are a failure, Including both Seas Flagships The Millenium and The Cresendo. When heard next to a quality FR .
With this single source wide band driver, no additional tweeter is needed.
Now in the low bass, say 30-80hz, it is recommended adding some sort of bass modual.
Which will bring in another dimension making the bass floor, more richer and dynamic, eliminates a sense of ~flatness~ about a single source's voicing.
Now I've not heard the single source drivers from the 2 highest labs. My guess is both labs also will benifit from added bass configure.
So now we need to look at what bass configures voice the cleanest, low distortion, sublime and subtle.
For this task, I recommend you look at Seas Excel either the older Magnesium Cone or the newst Magnesium cone called Graphene, which are like 50% more cost, Not sure if its worth it.
The ideal size will either be dual W18's, or a single W22, maybe even a W26.
This Magnesium cone material is so sublime in the 40-60hz's, that hardly any driver on the market will match it. With the copper phase plug. Not a neodymium magnet, but still packs a gorgeous tight rich 40-60hz bass , and voicing the low mids with pure clean fidelity. Pricey but worth it.
Capacitor for the Excel midwoofers should be Mundorf SilverGold Supreme of if you can afford it SESGO. 2X's the price of reg supreme. Superior vs their Aluminum model.
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- 15 posts total
I'm not sure if I follow. I may be looking at the wrong Seas drivers but the W18 or W22 are not full range drivers and at 88 dB I wouldn't categorize then as highly efficient. I thought you were talking about high efficiency full range single drivers - like what I have in my Omega Super Alnico Monitors. I think they sound fantastic for certain genres of music where upper bass through lower treble region is more dense than other regions. The high efficiency combined with the lack of a crossover gives single drivers a perceived sense of immediacy that is quite noticeable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes the W18,W22 older model Excel Magnisium are low eff at 87, I would prefer to havea single W22 Graphene Magnesium the new flagship midbass as adding extra low end for my future Vox 8 98 db eff single source. The Thors dual W18's will be employed for that task. Perhaps the Vox 8 does go as the specs say, donw to 20hz. who knows. In my limited expm f FR single source drivers,, the soundstage can seem a bit flat. When I added the dual w18's in the system the sound field has more depth, width. Seas really engineered a world class midbass in their Excel technology, Magnesium seems to be the most perfect cone material in low bass asa bonus the low midrange is pure , clean, natural. The Millenium dome tweet suffers the same weaknesses as all dome tweeters. The Millenium is the only weakness in my system, But its a big liability, AS midrange is 90++ % of the music. Seas in the Millenium and their new flagship the Cresendo , are attempting for this 1.3 inch dome tweeter to handle both low mids and upper highs. I must say the human voice is extemely accurate, no fatigue, no muddiness. It is the soundstage, too small for my classical music. Here is where a high quality FR can out perform any dome tweeter in production from Scanspeak and seas. Sure a high quality pure dome tweeter can work excellent in the highs, but then what do we do with mids?? Here is where a high quality FR can outperform any midrange/tweeter combination. There is so much music left unheard , due to low db sens lack of ~~transparency~~. The subtilities, nuances in any recording medium are so muffled in a low eff driver. These nuances can be detected when a FR acting as mid/high driver is employed. Bass is just a bonus. But is it enough low end, with fullness, depth? The thing with these high sens FR drivers anda 100watt PP/KY88, is the limits on the gain, Just a pinch of the vol and its already loud enough. But now the PP can drive the 87db W18's. its going to have to work. W18's @ 87db + FR8 @ 98db I'm running the W18's with a FR8/94db, and works** just fine**. Huge caveat here Thing is vol is hardly at 8 oclock. More like 7 oclock. Yeah I know I'm only using say 10 watts of the Defy7's 100.. It IS what IT is. |
I agree and disagree! Big fan of seas excel. Listening to some right now. Also a big fan of bass. My speakers play 25-26hz very strong
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Which Seas Excel are you using? I want to place a W22 Graphene in where the bottom W18 is, But they are too pricey, $1k pair. For what? Some fq's below 40hz? Not worth it. ...but then,,,who knows down the road,,, |
Here is Troels Gravesen’s design using the W22 + a W12 He asks <<Is there too many xover componets??>> Then goes on to explain why the need for so many caps,resistors etc. It looks to bea very nice sounding speaker, But its too many xover parts for my cup of tea. I’ll stay with the W18 dual drivers. Just 1 cap, 1 coil, 1 resistor, lots of solid bass, gorgeous lower mids. Here in this article Troels gives upa breakdown of low bass/mid range fq’s. Lets all go over the specs. byw I disconnected the LII Fast8 FR and hooked up the dayon 3 inch FR where the Millennium was in the Thor cabinet. WINNER!!! The Fast8 was too warm. The LII Fast8 was 94db. The Dayton FR 3 is 85 db, right there with the W18’s. Now the mids/upper highs are perfectly in line with the bass from the W18’s. If I swap out one W18 for a W22/Graphene, the deeper bass just might get on my nerves. Swapping a W18 fora Graphene W18 might be doable, but price is like $1100 pair..?? For what? http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/TJL3W.htm IMHO The dual W18’s EXOO1’s are the best bass response from any design. If we cionsider small/mid size room enclosures. Larger rooms, W18 Graphene/W22 Graphene. |
I read through your other thread about speakers being the most important component in the chain. I’m sorry but it doesn’t sound like it was established conclusively that speakers are the most important part. I see no consensus forming around that opinion. My suggestion is to halt this thread temporarily, go back back to the first one, build consensus, and then come back to this one. You’re welcome. |
- 15 posts total