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eBay / PayPal: Beware - enough is never enough.

OK, I'm just venting here, but maybe some folks will find some useful information in this...


  • eBay's New 'system' for screwing you, uhh, I meant 'paying you'.
You've all had the emails and gone into your eBay account to accept the new system for getting paid, right?

In the old days, we could sell a pair of $4,000 speakers on eBay and the buyer could pay you and the money would be transferred to your PayPal account instantly. PayPal would dock their fees and eBay would reconcile your monthly sales and charge you fees at the end of the month based on what you sold. Not so anymore.

You sell your $4000 speakers, for which the buyer has paid, let's say $350 for shipping. Now, eBay holds on to ALL the funds, including the shipping payment, until the item is delivered!

So, you have to fund the shipping fees from your own pocket while eBay sits on YOUR money. What if you don't have the $350 and need the money the seller has paid you to fund buying the shipping labels?? Tough Luck. (how can this even be legal, never mind ethical?)
Then, what happens when UPS loses the package?? Some 'robot' at eBay arbitrarily decides that you don't get your money because their automated system indicates the item wasn't delivered. Now you have to wrangle with UPS, meanwhile, your money is sitting in eBays vaults earning them interest.

What a joke.


  • eBay screws you for NON-SHIPMENT
Here's another example of eBay screwing you - this happened to me in January.

I listed a big/heavy item, $3000 + $160 fixed rate UPS shipping

A prospective buyer contacts me to ask if he could pay for shipping through his business UPS account because he thinks he can get a better rate. Fine.

I agree, he hits 'Buy Now', and I send him an eBay invoice without shipping costs. (THIS IS BEFORE THE NEW EBAY SYSTEM WHERE THEY HOLD YOUR MONEY!)

I pack the item and contact the buyer showing photos of the packing process, supply the dimensions and weight, and request that he sends shipping labels and arranges for UPS to pick it up from my address, all as agreed prior to the sale.
A week goes by, nothing. I contact him and tell him I need to get this out of my space, can he send the labels.
After almost 3 weeks he emails me through eBay and just says 'I want a refund'. I message back and say no fric*en way. We go back and forth, he opens a dispute with eBay. I counter and also open a ticket with eBay and provide all of the correspondence and documentation, which is all sitting in my eBay messages account anyway.

A few days go by and eBay decides in his favor, removes the money from my PayPal account, and enters an invisible 'STRIKE' against my selling account for NON SHIPMENT!!! (I only found this out after speaking with an eBay customer service manager, don't even ask how long that took).

So basically I have to start over trying to sell the item as this loser couldn't get a decent shipping rate through his UPS account, and wouldn't pay the $160 that was listed with the ad. And eBay PUNISHES ME for non-shipment!
Word to the wise - Don't allow the buyer to organize shipping. Even 'local pickup' is fraught, should they just decide not to turn up.


  • PayPal Screws Sellers Under Their Seller Protection Program
Be super careful to read the small print when you sell and ship an item after being paid through PayPal, even when their system tells you that your transaction is covered by their Seller Protection Program. It isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Let me demonstrate by flipping this around and assuming the role of the BUYER to illustrate what a joke their Seller Protection Program is when you really need it the most - 

I'm a BUYER and I want to scam someone and get a nice $2000 CD Player for free. 
I pay using my PayPal account and the seller ships it to me, he thinks it's safe to ship 'cos he's qualified for PayPal's Seller Protection....ha ha.

The trick is, I need to use the credit card linked to my PayPal account to fund the transaction, using PayPal only to provide the gateway for the deception. 
The item arrives. I then file a dispute with my CC company (Not PayPal). I state on the dispute that the item received was 'NOT AS DESCRIBED' (no other wording or explanation needed). Bingo. My CC company instigates a charge-back and I've got myself a free CD Player.

Switching back to the seller's angle - 
I wake up to see that $2000 has been removed from my PayPal account pending a review. After X days, and after my complying with all documentation requests, PayPal informs me that the item I shipped was 'not as described' and that I'm NOT entitled to Seller Protection because their system excludes instances where a third-party credit card was used to fund the transaction, and where the Credit Card company authorized the charge-back!!

What, you're kidding me, right? NO. Read the terms of the seller protection program and it's clearly stated.

Also, even if the buyer uses PayPal funds from their account, you can still end up getting screwed. You MUST always enter the shipping information inside of PayPal -  a full tracking number. Always use 'adult signature' and always ship to the verified address on PayPal. If the buyer emails you after sending payment and gives you a different shipping address, send a refund and walk away. Trying to enter tracking numbers for proof of delivery retroactively after a dispute has been started, may land you in a situation where PayPal find in favor of the buyer, refund them the money from the transaction, AND, decline to reimburse you under the Seller Protection program because you didn't follow the requirements of the program post-sale. This isn't speculation. I've read many forum posts where people have shipped an item believing it safe to do so, then had the money removed from their account by PayPal following a dispute, even though the initial transaction was shown to qualify for Seller Protection at the time of sale.


  • PayPal hangs on to your refunded money for as long as they care to.
Even when a transaction between buyer and seller is harmonious, PayPal can still find a way to screw with you.

Perhaps this is a less egregious example of PayPal's utter disregard for their customers, but valid nevertheless. And a warning to those of you using a linked credit card to fund a PayPal purchase - 

(I'm in the midst of dealing with this now, outcome unknown).

I buy an item for $2000 using PayPal, funded from a linked Credit Card.
After a few weeks, the item hasn't shipped and I ask the supplier that the order be canceled and the money refunded (to PayPal). 
The seller complies with my request and I see the refund issued inside my PayPal account. 
After a few days, I log in to my Credit Card account but the refund hasn't been credited through from PayPal, so there's a $2000 charge on my account, and payment due pretty soon.

I wait a week and still nothing. I look closely at the transaction inside my PayPal account and see this -

"Refunded. Pending Until" Pending until when? It doesn't say. I open a ticket inside my PayPal account to ask how long I'm supposed to wait to get MY MONEY back. After 24 hours the ticket is responded to. The PayPal operator responds with "Please let us know your first and last name and we'll be happy to help". Remember, this is a ticket opened inside my PayPal account and after I've logged in!! They know who I am, FFS!

After 9 days of PP holding on to my refunded money, just arbitrarily and without any explanation or forecast as to when I'll receive it, my credit card payment is due. The only balance on my card is the $2000 transaction and I need to pay it to avoid interest since it's been a month since the original transaction. However - CREDIT CARD COMPANIES MAY SUSPEND YOUR ACCOUNT SHOULD A REFUNDED PAYMENT RESULT IN A POSITIVE ACCOUNT BALANCE, OR REJECT AN INCOMING TRANSACTION THAT WOULD APPLY A POSITIVE BALANCE TO YOUR ACCOUNT.

Yes, I was given this information from the CC company. It's something to do with the Patriot Act and preventing Credit Card accounts from being used erroneously to send money illegally from overseas. So, if I pay off the $2000 statement balance, then a few days later, the refund is miraculously posted from PayPal, the incoming credit MAY be rejected by my CC company. So where does it go? IN LIMBO? (Note to Catholics, you thought limbo was removed from the Catholic Catechism, but they were just messing with you, sorry). 

Remember, this is my money - the supplier refunded it. Now I'm at risk of it disappearing into some finance system's black hole because PayPal won't just refund it promptly.

Rant Over.

There are many documented examples of what little regard these companies have for the rights of the consumer (YOU HAVE FEW RIGHTS), and how little they care about anything other than growing their bottom line.

I can't believe there isn't a class-action lawsuit (multiple) against these companies. Oh, yeah, PayPal is owned by eBay, but....legally, they're two separate corporate entities. I wonder why that is, exactly.

Have a nice day!

Rooze


128x128rooze
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vip428
12 posts
 
Yes eBay’s managed payments is a technically flawed system on many levels!  Dill some of your statements are accurate, using the eBay shipping system is a must.  However EBay is technically now acting as an “Escrow Agent”.  And as such is now subject to a different standard.  They are trying to circumvent law in this matter by using the term “managed payment”.   This is evidence by my complaint that I have to wait until mid June for the release of funds because the buyer is in Thailand and he has to acknowledge satisfactory receipt.  I took many pictures of what I send anyway to protect myself against the possible claim is that I got an empty box.  eBay initially was very responsive saying that the times would change once I successfully completed 12 transactions. Well what happened to the couple of hundred prior successful transactions dating back over 20 years, they don’t matter?  But all communication STOPPED when I said they were in fact potentially violating the law.  As an escrow agent they are held to a different fiduciary standard and funds must be held in a separate trust account with no co mingling of corporate funds and any accrued benefit such as accumulated interest must be passed along.  This doesn’t pass the smell test and can possibly lead to a class action filing.  Why call it “Managed Payment”. When you are in Fact acting as an Escrow Agent”. I can forward my emails showing their responses and then they went dark, when I confronted them.

This is NOT how e-commerce should work!  The buyer pays, the seller ships.  That simple.  You vet sellers to make sure they are valid and responsible by their transaction history.  They maintain a funding source via their credit.  If there is a problem then and only then should you withhold or withdraw funds, NOT in advance.  The funds are NOT in my bank account.  They are in your account.  Is this a secured escrow account where EBay Is NOT the beneficiary in any way such as Interest accumulation, Credit Utilization, Financial Leveraging?  In many States what you would be doing is Illegal!  Escrow accounts should be of NO benefit to the agent in this case YOU, EBay.  I am making a formal filing for discovery on this matter via all legal channels available to me.  If necessary even seeking a Class Action Suit to insure complete transparency.

Sent from my iPhone
On May 14, 2021, at 8:08 AM, customerhelp@ebay.com wrote:

Follow-up email SR# 1-322973740013

Hello John,

 

This is a follow-up email to your recent contact to eBay regarding your funds. I know the importance of getting your funds released.

 

I assure you that the money is in your bank account already it is just on hold. You have done the right thing by shipping the item and uploading the tracking information as this will expedite the release of your funds. Upon, reviewing the tracking, I can see that the item is in transits. Hence, as soon as we receive the delivery confirmation, the funds should be released within 24 hours. 

 

Here are few ways to get your funds automatically in the future:

 

- 1 day or shortly after delivery confirmation

- 2 days after item has been sold, if no tracking was used, we'll check for positive feedback. If positive feedback has been received, you'll receive the funds within 24 hours.

- 6 days after the estimated delivery date (if no tracking was provided but the item was marked as dispatched)

- 21 days after the buyer pays

 

We temporarily hold funds to encourage practices that result in successful order fulfillment and create a safe marketplace for both buyers and sellers like you.

 

Right now, you would need to complete 12 more transaction to graduate from the program and get your funds quicker.

 

For more information about payment holds, you may refer to the link below:

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/getting-paid-items-youve-sold/pending-payments?id=4155


dill
2,533 posts
 
Did you ship the item overseas? If so, did you use the eBay's Global Shipping program? I don't ever ship overseas so I don't know about withholding funds until proof of delivery. The overseas buyers, that buy from me, use a freight forwarding outfit based in the USA and my duty is only to get the item to them. They take care of the final leg of the journey and is paid by the buyer.
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
638 posts
 
@dill

I received email notification of the sale as usual.
The email said ‘your item has been paid for, it’s safe to ship’, pretty much the same as always.
I logged in to my account and looked at the order. It showed a fancy 3-step status bar which is new. I can’t recall this exactly but it was basically- Order paid - Pending Shipping- Payout On Delivery.
There were various new links around the order detail page. One just says ‘Getting Paid’. That lead to a page explaining the new process.

Right on the order page there’s a date for estimated payout, and in my case it was June 17, 30 days from making the sale.

It shows the usual statement, listing price, shipping paid, sub total, payout amount minus fees ($530).
There’s no ambiguity here. There was a clear link from the order detail page under ‘when will I Get Paid’ and it clearly stated the hold on funds until the item is delivered.... with the anomaly that the estimated payout date was 4 weeks hence and not the 8-10 days or so it would take to process and ship from VA to TX.
It did not instruct me to create a label through eBay, only to enter the tracking number as with the previous system, it did also give me the option to buy shipping through eBay, as before.

In this instance, on being told that my funds were being held, and that the estimated release date was a month forward, I reluctantly cancelled the order and deleted all my listings of $50 or more.
Now then, it clearly states in the new eBay policy that payment will be sent within 2 days. There’s nothing I could find relating to having funds held until the shipment arrives, or longer. Clearly my account is/was treated differently than their own policy states, and I couldn’t see any reason for that. But I’m not alone, there are many forum dwellers complaining about the same thing.
What grates is that I wasn’t told prior to the sale being made that I wouldn’t get paid, potentially for a whole month. I found out post sale. They could’ve told me when creating the listing but they waited until a buyer had committed the funds. I’m not willing to have $4000 sitting in eBay’s coffers due to some invisible ruling on my account, so I canceled the order, which, of course, instigated a refund to the buyer.

Yes, I could’ve opened a ticket asking “what gives”, but have you ever dealt with these people? And it’s usually an AI answering questions of this nature which only adds to the frustration.
I’ve opted to vote with my feet. I’m just saying to others reading this thread to double check before shipping an item.
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
638 posts
 
Here’s the email announcing the new system, there’s nothing about having funds held pending delivery. Again, the lack of transparency.

eBay is now managing payments for your account

As a reminder, eBay is now managing payments for your account, which means:

  • •

    You get paid directly to your bank account, not your PayPal account. IMPORTANT: If you haven’t already done so, please add a bank account so you can get paid. You can add your bank account from the new Selling Overview page on My eBay. 

  • ◦

    Note: You may receive a separate message to add or verify your information.

  • •

    No more PayPal payment processing fees. No more separate monthly fee payments. You will pay an updated final value fee, consisting of a variable category-based percentage of the total amount of the sale, plus a fixed fee per order. Most sellers will pay the same or less than before.* See fee details

  • •

    Your buyers can now pay for items they purchase from you with credit, debit, and gift cards, Apple Pay, Google Pay, PayPal, and PayPal Credit.

What’s more

  • •

    You can access everything you need on eBay: consolidated fees, refunds, returns, and more.

  • •

    We will automatically deduct your eBay selling fees, expenses, and costs from your earnings before you get paid. The remainder of your earnings will go directly to your bank account.

  • •

    You can cover the costs of refunds and other charges from your bank account or credit card when your earnings are not sufficient to cover the refund amount.

  • •

    We will initiate payouts within two business days from when the buyer pays. You may choose to receive available funds to your bank account weekly or daily, as funds are available. Learn more about payouts.


dill
2,533 posts
 
Evidently, they determined, maybe because of the amount, the transaction to be a risk.

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/getting-paid-items-youve-sold/pending-payments?id=415...

  When funds become available

Here are the time frames when your payment will become available:

  • Within 24 hours after we confirm the order was delivered if you pay for shipping and print labels on eBay.
  • Within 24 hours after we confirm the order was delivered if you ship directly using USPS, UPS or FedEx and manually enter your tracking information to My eBay.
  • 6 days after the latest estimated delivery date if you don’t upload tracking information, but you mark the item as shipped in My eBay.
  • 21 days after the buyer pays if you don't provide tracking information, mark the item as shipped, or the estimated delivery date can't be calculated. In such cases, we may use buyer feedback as a delivery confirmation along with other factors.

We may also hold funds for 21 days if we determine the transaction to be a risk. Category, price, and seller standing can all contribute to this decision. You can identify this by the estimated release date in the sold section of My eBay.


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