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eBay / PayPal: Beware - enough is never enough.

OK, I'm just venting here, but maybe some folks will find some useful information in this...


  • eBay's New 'system' for screwing you, uhh, I meant 'paying you'.
You've all had the emails and gone into your eBay account to accept the new system for getting paid, right?

In the old days, we could sell a pair of $4,000 speakers on eBay and the buyer could pay you and the money would be transferred to your PayPal account instantly. PayPal would dock their fees and eBay would reconcile your monthly sales and charge you fees at the end of the month based on what you sold. Not so anymore.

You sell your $4000 speakers, for which the buyer has paid, let's say $350 for shipping. Now, eBay holds on to ALL the funds, including the shipping payment, until the item is delivered!

So, you have to fund the shipping fees from your own pocket while eBay sits on YOUR money. What if you don't have the $350 and need the money the seller has paid you to fund buying the shipping labels?? Tough Luck. (how can this even be legal, never mind ethical?)
Then, what happens when UPS loses the package?? Some 'robot' at eBay arbitrarily decides that you don't get your money because their automated system indicates the item wasn't delivered. Now you have to wrangle with UPS, meanwhile, your money is sitting in eBays vaults earning them interest.

What a joke.


  • eBay screws you for NON-SHIPMENT
Here's another example of eBay screwing you - this happened to me in January.

I listed a big/heavy item, $3000 + $160 fixed rate UPS shipping

A prospective buyer contacts me to ask if he could pay for shipping through his business UPS account because he thinks he can get a better rate. Fine.

I agree, he hits 'Buy Now', and I send him an eBay invoice without shipping costs. (THIS IS BEFORE THE NEW EBAY SYSTEM WHERE THEY HOLD YOUR MONEY!)

I pack the item and contact the buyer showing photos of the packing process, supply the dimensions and weight, and request that he sends shipping labels and arranges for UPS to pick it up from my address, all as agreed prior to the sale.
A week goes by, nothing. I contact him and tell him I need to get this out of my space, can he send the labels.
After almost 3 weeks he emails me through eBay and just says 'I want a refund'. I message back and say no fric*en way. We go back and forth, he opens a dispute with eBay. I counter and also open a ticket with eBay and provide all of the correspondence and documentation, which is all sitting in my eBay messages account anyway.

A few days go by and eBay decides in his favor, removes the money from my PayPal account, and enters an invisible 'STRIKE' against my selling account for NON SHIPMENT!!! (I only found this out after speaking with an eBay customer service manager, don't even ask how long that took).

So basically I have to start over trying to sell the item as this loser couldn't get a decent shipping rate through his UPS account, and wouldn't pay the $160 that was listed with the ad. And eBay PUNISHES ME for non-shipment!
Word to the wise - Don't allow the buyer to organize shipping. Even 'local pickup' is fraught, should they just decide not to turn up.


  • PayPal Screws Sellers Under Their Seller Protection Program
Be super careful to read the small print when you sell and ship an item after being paid through PayPal, even when their system tells you that your transaction is covered by their Seller Protection Program. It isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Let me demonstrate by flipping this around and assuming the role of the BUYER to illustrate what a joke their Seller Protection Program is when you really need it the most - 

I'm a BUYER and I want to scam someone and get a nice $2000 CD Player for free. 
I pay using my PayPal account and the seller ships it to me, he thinks it's safe to ship 'cos he's qualified for PayPal's Seller Protection....ha ha.

The trick is, I need to use the credit card linked to my PayPal account to fund the transaction, using PayPal only to provide the gateway for the deception. 
The item arrives. I then file a dispute with my CC company (Not PayPal). I state on the dispute that the item received was 'NOT AS DESCRIBED' (no other wording or explanation needed). Bingo. My CC company instigates a charge-back and I've got myself a free CD Player.

Switching back to the seller's angle - 
I wake up to see that $2000 has been removed from my PayPal account pending a review. After X days, and after my complying with all documentation requests, PayPal informs me that the item I shipped was 'not as described' and that I'm NOT entitled to Seller Protection because their system excludes instances where a third-party credit card was used to fund the transaction, and where the Credit Card company authorized the charge-back!!

What, you're kidding me, right? NO. Read the terms of the seller protection program and it's clearly stated.

Also, even if the buyer uses PayPal funds from their account, you can still end up getting screwed. You MUST always enter the shipping information inside of PayPal -  a full tracking number. Always use 'adult signature' and always ship to the verified address on PayPal. If the buyer emails you after sending payment and gives you a different shipping address, send a refund and walk away. Trying to enter tracking numbers for proof of delivery retroactively after a dispute has been started, may land you in a situation where PayPal find in favor of the buyer, refund them the money from the transaction, AND, decline to reimburse you under the Seller Protection program because you didn't follow the requirements of the program post-sale. This isn't speculation. I've read many forum posts where people have shipped an item believing it safe to do so, then had the money removed from their account by PayPal following a dispute, even though the initial transaction was shown to qualify for Seller Protection at the time of sale.


  • PayPal hangs on to your refunded money for as long as they care to.
Even when a transaction between buyer and seller is harmonious, PayPal can still find a way to screw with you.

Perhaps this is a less egregious example of PayPal's utter disregard for their customers, but valid nevertheless. And a warning to those of you using a linked credit card to fund a PayPal purchase - 

(I'm in the midst of dealing with this now, outcome unknown).

I buy an item for $2000 using PayPal, funded from a linked Credit Card.
After a few weeks, the item hasn't shipped and I ask the supplier that the order be canceled and the money refunded (to PayPal). 
The seller complies with my request and I see the refund issued inside my PayPal account. 
After a few days, I log in to my Credit Card account but the refund hasn't been credited through from PayPal, so there's a $2000 charge on my account, and payment due pretty soon.

I wait a week and still nothing. I look closely at the transaction inside my PayPal account and see this -

"Refunded. Pending Until" Pending until when? It doesn't say. I open a ticket inside my PayPal account to ask how long I'm supposed to wait to get MY MONEY back. After 24 hours the ticket is responded to. The PayPal operator responds with "Please let us know your first and last name and we'll be happy to help". Remember, this is a ticket opened inside my PayPal account and after I've logged in!! They know who I am, FFS!

After 9 days of PP holding on to my refunded money, just arbitrarily and without any explanation or forecast as to when I'll receive it, my credit card payment is due. The only balance on my card is the $2000 transaction and I need to pay it to avoid interest since it's been a month since the original transaction. However - CREDIT CARD COMPANIES MAY SUSPEND YOUR ACCOUNT SHOULD A REFUNDED PAYMENT RESULT IN A POSITIVE ACCOUNT BALANCE, OR REJECT AN INCOMING TRANSACTION THAT WOULD APPLY A POSITIVE BALANCE TO YOUR ACCOUNT.

Yes, I was given this information from the CC company. It's something to do with the Patriot Act and preventing Credit Card accounts from being used erroneously to send money illegally from overseas. So, if I pay off the $2000 statement balance, then a few days later, the refund is miraculously posted from PayPal, the incoming credit MAY be rejected by my CC company. So where does it go? IN LIMBO? (Note to Catholics, you thought limbo was removed from the Catholic Catechism, but they were just messing with you, sorry). 

Remember, this is my money - the supplier refunded it. Now I'm at risk of it disappearing into some finance system's black hole because PayPal won't just refund it promptly.

Rant Over.

There are many documented examples of what little regard these companies have for the rights of the consumer (YOU HAVE FEW RIGHTS), and how little they care about anything other than growing their bottom line.

I can't believe there isn't a class-action lawsuit (multiple) against these companies. Oh, yeah, PayPal is owned by eBay, but....legally, they're two separate corporate entities. I wonder why that is, exactly.

Have a nice day!

Rooze


128x128rooze
martinb0820
19 posts
 
Try US Audio Mart. I've had excellent buying and selling experiences there.
hartf36's avatar
hartf36
206 posts
 
Longtime eBayer (20 years, 600 transactions, 100% positive feedback).  An increase in scamming “buyers” the last few years, eBay consistently siding with those buyers in disputes the last few years and this new selling policy have finally done it for me.  I’ve moved to Bonanza to see what they’re about.  Selling fees look to be way less and the platform looks like the one used on Reverb.  I’m not interested in another eBay goat-rope originating from this new policy.  Nuffsenuff.
whipsaw
758 posts
 
... the last few years, eBay consistently siding with those buyers in disputes the last few years and this new selling policy have finally done it for me.

Ah, an opening for a related rant. Three years ago I sold a vintage (’40s) wristwatch on eBay. The buyer had a U.S. address, and the watch was delivered fairly quickly. About 30 days later I received a message from the buyer, saying that he had received the watch. I found that strange, but forgot about until soon after, when I received a notice from eBay saying that the buyer was requesting a return, based on the item "not being as described". What, specifically, was his complaint? That it was not running accurately.

Well, as always, I had made it clear in the advert that I had no idea of the last date of service, that it should receive one for regular wear, and that I made no claims of accuracy. So, it was a ~75 year old watch without a recent service, described correctly. Yet eBay not only decided in the buyer’s favor, but said that I had to pay the return postage, as well.

So the first outrage was that they sided with a buyer who made a false claim. But things were just becoming interesting, as the parcel was shipped back from Japan! That was the second clue that led me to the obvious conclusion, namely that he had been using a proxy forwarding service in the U.S.

Now, that, in and of itself, is not against eBay rules. However, using such services automatically disqualifies buyers from returning any items! This makes sense, of course, as who knows how they are handled, re-packed, etc.

I don’t want to burden readers with too much detail, but eBay was HIGHLY resistant to my claim, and I literally had to do some detective work in order to prove that a forwarding company had been used. By the time that eBay was willing to admit that I was correct, the watch had already been shipped, and they were basically unable to do anything to to correct the infuriating situation.

What pissed me off the most is that they made a unilateral decision without giving me any opportunity to respond. Had they waited a couple of days, I could have proven my case, and the watch would never have been returned.

I haven’t sold an item on eBay since.

rspyder
98 posts
 
Thanks for the screw-over synopsis of eBay and PP transactions.  These posts are becoming more common.  That's why I don't do transactions using either and I don't deal with buyers or sellers unless they have a long and untarnished record. 

The other problem is people are too polite and not sufficiently honest in their reviews, which leaves those who rely on accurate reviews exposed.  I had a Canuck buyer who closed on a sale and then back out for no reason.  I was two hours from shipping the cables to him.  I left a thorough and honest review to warn those looking to transact in the future with that individual.

paradisecom
319 posts
 
Fleabay screwed me over years ago, as well.  I had over 20 years of 100% feedback with them and a buyer in the UK screwed me.  He filed a false "not as described" claim, got his refund right away and shipped back the "item."  I had a funny feeling about the whole deal and made a video of myself unwrapping and opening the package when it arrived.  I sold a NIB set of car audio subwoofer drivers.  I got a set of old door speakers from the junk yard in return.
I plead my case with Fleabay and even offered to send video proof of the buyers deception.  They still sided with him.  So, I closed my account and at that time, I owed a balance of nearly $700 for sellers fees.  Too bad for them.  They can eat it just like they made me eat the shitty speakers I got back. 

I posted the video on YouTube with a factual description, hoping that it may help others to avoid that scammer.  It was up for a few years, but then I think he complained to YouTube and they deleted it.  I got some comments from it from other Fleabayers that got screwed too, so I think it was putting a kink in his scamming.  I don't know.
These big corporations are just out of control, yet they have so much money, they get their way all the time, crushing us like insects.  I try avoiding using them and avoid buying stuff made in China as much as possible. 
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