Why don't more recordings have soundstage outside of speakers

millercarbon9,311 posts05-26-2021 5:12pmThere's actually a very prosaic answer to this question. When we listen closely we tend to look in that direction. Ears on each side of the head, duh. When we record we do the same. Maybe there are groups the performers occupy different locations around the room at random. Not many, is my guess. From intimate solo singer to full orchestra to U2 extravaganza the performance always occupies a relatively small area in front of us.

Anything way off to the sides is therefore much more a gimmick or effect than music.  

There. Done. And on to the next question. ....  

Seriously? That's a very myopic statement.

If that qualifies as your definitive answer to recording, you're demonstrating that you don't know very much about recording.

 however I have learned that instruments themselves should not come from beyond the speakers which is what you would expect if you think about it. I use to occasionally hear some instruments on certain recordings come from beyond the speakers.

I will have to completely disagree with you on this.

A symphony orchestra is set up with violins stage far right, double basses are far left. The main mics are, usually, setup in a Decca Tree config (which is used almost exclusively for orchestral recordings), the 2 mics used to capture stereo, are omnidirectional, and they are usually fairly close to each other. So, they are definitely capturing information from well beyond their outer 'edges'. There are also "outrigger" mics to capture a bit more ambience. 

On a decent classical recording, there is plenty of information from beyond the outer edges of the mics, and if the speakers (and room) are relatively good, those violins stage right, and basses stage left, will come from beyond the outer edges of the speakers. And it's not a gimmick, it's on the recording. 

Maybe if the information that was coming from past the outside edges of the speakers was of instruments that aren't supposed to be to the far left or far right, like clarinets or some other instrument from the closer to the center of the orchestra. If a clarinet seemed like it was coming from beyond the edges of my speakers, that I could see blaming on artifacts of a poor room. But the fact that the instruments that always seem like they are coming from past the edges of my speakers, are only those at stage right or left, seems like a bit too much of a coincidence. 

I've got great diffusion behind the speakers, absorption on the side wall and ceiling. 

Not to mention, I've heard a large pair of Wilson Alexandria speakers in a room so large and well treated, that I would be surprised if the side walls came into play at all. And again, tons of very natural sounding orchestral instruments coming from past the outer edges of the speakers. 

There's actually a very prosaic answer to this question. When we listen closely we tend to look in that direction. Ears on each side of the head, duh. When we record we do the same. Maybe there are groups the performers occupy different locations around the room at random. Not many, is my guess. From intimate solo singer to full orchestra to U2 extravaganza the performance always occupies a relatively small area in front of us.

Anything way off to the sides is therefore much more a gimmick or effect than music.  

There. Done. And on to the next question. ....  

Once again, the mic techniques used for classical recordings are specifically designed to capture information from well beyond a 'relatively small area'. Not just side to side, but deep too. 

Google something like the following "Decca tree recoding an orchestra" or "how to set up mics for recording an orchestra", or similar verbiage.

Take a look at this diagram below and let me know why this mic placement for the San Francisco Orchestra, will only produce a soundstage that 'occupies a relatively small area'. 

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Audio_production/sf_symphony.htm

Why am I getting the idea that many people here, have not spent a lot of time listening to classical recordings on a good system?

My system, in my relatively small room, consistently produces a soundstage of an orchestra, that sounds about at the same scale as if I was about 20 rows back at Disney Hall. Not trickery, no gimmicks, no false large soundstage created by early reflections, etc. Simply the soundstage captured on the recording by tried and true recording methods. 

I certainly agree about the gimmicks however I have learned that instruments themselves should not come from beyond the speakers which is what you would expect if you think about it.

You are completely wrong and perhaps you must reconsider your way to use electronic equalization instead of room control...Your description demonstrate the inability where you are to recreate a great sonic field in the room..

It is way more important to adjust the room large bandwith/timbre  response to the speakers than the opposite which is  adjusting  the speakers narrow frequency response to the room ....

 There a 2 stages of manifestation in acoustic control ( it is for sure recording quality dependant):

 --In the beginning with some selected especially good recording the orchestra is IN your room and you listen to it  external to the orchestra...You are happy because you enjoy anyway an imaging which can be good....

--After a complete acoustic control, for many well recorded albums  you may be among the instruments and with them on the scene in some case...The listener is enveloped by music and no more external to it....Listener envelopment factor (LEV).

If i read your description you have never lived through this experience with any recording then your room and acoustic control are lacking....

This post of yours  confirm my opinion that electronic equalization is a secondary tool helpful to fine tune the speakers/ room relation but cannot replace neither passive material treatment nor  even less replacing ACTIVE acoustic control....  

no false large soundstage created by early reflections, etc.

A rightfully use of the timing of reflections can produce an unusual soundstage but it is related to the way the recording or mixing was made...Active controls is based on the use of the reverberation time and the timing between early and late and even back and front reflections  and their ratio and  the 2 main frontwaves for each ears...

Then it is not a "gimick" nor a "trickery" and it is easy to verify that your room is correctly modified with some other recordings which will not present this unusual soundstage...

No classical recording is always the same and always orthodox...There is some exceptions...

i am  OK and in accord with your 2 posts.... I just wanted to give my take and experience with my own room sometimes unusual soundstage recording dependent...


I enjoy sometimes with some recording the impression to live among musicians on the scene, which event never happen in a concert where you were seated in front of the musicians... If the room is not under control this surround and enveloping experience with a stereo system is impossible even with a recording album which had this possibility in it because of the particular way it was recorded...