2. tech-talk
  3. 167820-136265

Speakers as the principle component/other components are servants

Speakers  hold the Kingship in our overall  audio systems. 
I think my recent posts have substaniated  this thesis, well at least my opinion of sorts.
This OP  came to me after reading  through some of (most of what is too deep for my understanding) 
pedro's 
topic
**Why is science a  starting point, yet not the end point?*
Meaning science gives us all sorts of parimeters, specs, graphs and such. Most of which we have no clue how to interpret, 
All we ae concerned is , **how does the speaker actually sound**.

Pedro suggests science has let us down, that science, if it was so intelligent, why can't science tell us which speaker is the superior and which the inferior sound???
Obvioulsy science is not the end all /be all.
Its only a  tool, human sensibilities come in  at the very end to say
Yea 
or worse
Nay
I say nay
to all/eversy xover design in the fq's ,,ohh say 800hz = 15khz.
Yeah I know thats a  massive chuck of our music.
As many of you know i make very long winded posts 
But actually I reduce them to make them more readable and so folks don't lose  interest. 
~~~So cut to the chase.
We accept high tech in every aspect of our lives.
You name it, super high tech is there,. Had you told us back in 1965, folks would be walking around with telephones, sending pics/videos,,we'd all laugh you at your face  as scifi fantasy.

~~~Long story short.

The new  wide band /high sensitivity speaker technology. What gives?
Why the denial it exists?
Why the fear to inquisite?
Why the lack of interest?
Why the rejection?

Speakers  will crown your system with beauty Or else render it as distortion/low fidelity.

Tweak/,od/upgrade all you want, at how much you care to spend $$$$$ ($40K!!!) on cables etc. 
Ain;'t going to make hardly even a  miniscle gain in sonics, if the speakers are ~~faulty~~  due to  low sensitivity.
Bass woofers, I'll grant low sens Seas and Scaspeaks high end woofers  a  stunning succcess.
Above 800hz,  I have issues with any driver neededing a  xover.
I tag these fq's with xovers. The Wet Blanket sound. Sounds mechanical, like   compressed music,, comming from a  box.
Squeezed, contorted, tiny soundstage, strained fq's  if vol is over 10 oclock. = fatigue/Coloration  in abundance.  
Many fq's of the source, missing in action. 
I am not suggesting  these new wide band is for everyones taste. Not at all. Only that we should at least give these wide band a   consideration as a  possible alternative to our old  traditional ideas.

Inqusisitiveness is a good thing in  all things audio. 
Without  a  healthy  curiousity, we putrefy , stagnate.
 Even  Worse
we might miss out on the super high fidelty we all hope to hear one day in our systems by this neglect  of the new high technology in speaker design. . 

.


 
mozartfan
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
clearthinker438 posts07-07-2021 5:32amBy the way OP, that’s ’principal’ not ’principle’.

Thank you very much for this sp correction, Honestly I had no idea of
*al and *el*
I really did not,
I really need to get on my word learning again.
If I may once again my mantra,  ,
Speakers are
The PRINCE-pal* , Crown Jewel of our sound. Pun intended.
Amp/source are the servants, 
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 

speakermaster536 posts07-06-2021 8:23pmIt is this thinking about the so called high tech of today that is the most disturbing when audio was started they spared no expense on the drivers, cabinets, crossovers, etc. as well as the microphones to record the music with when we all realize that technology is not the answer but finding/ rediscovering the past is the answer to our audio problems. The old technology is where it is at for a lot of listeners in the know especially when you compare the old with the new no contest old every time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I asked my tech guy as to way Magnovox , Jensen, Zienth made suh great speakers in the Console cabinets,
Alnico's Field Coils and such. 
He says, because back in the late 50's, early 60's , materails were cheap, and engineers, designs were not rushed, things were done more meticulous and with the objective how can we make this the very best sound speaker. 
Fact is the 1920 Field Coils made in Chicago and Berlin, had set at least some standards as to how midrange should  sound. Nice clear , articulate, sound stage presence, krisp, detailed,. 
just wonderful... 
Fast forward to late 60's , 1970s. 
ConsumerISM = commercialISM came along, Cheap drivers , cheao xover parts, 
The few good ones , like Theil, Philips, AR4's,  a  few others, were the best of the  bunch, 
Some folks continue to this day to enjoy and cherish these xover designs, 
A friend has stacked AR4's, , really sounded great, , I must admit with a Golden Tube masive tube amp anda  Conrad Johnson line stage. 
But you you, if you listen on 1 channel with any xover desiggned speaker, and the other channel with a   new high tech wide band, 
The contrast will be significant. And for me the shootout will be over in less than 1 minute, if not a few seconds. 
This is how impressed I am with wide band/xoverless sound. 

Its really a no-brainer.
It was only a matter of time before we met paths, at the xroads. A
Adious xovers,
 I gave you all  the very best , Mundorf super high tech caps (=$$$$) and yet you just could not muster up more than a  *tweak-ling* in upgraded sound. . 
You let me down, and its high tech time  that we part ways
FOREVER!!!!!!!
There  are new kids on the block who can sing far superior than you ever could. 
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
If I had the chance to hear Troels Gravesen's top end speakers, would I like the sound?
I think so, 
But at what cost?? 
Expensive, heavy, and big. 
3 factors that cancel out any interest I may have. 
Sad wide band were not the main principAl topic around Audiogon starting back in the early 2000's. 
Any interest in these designs, (excluding horns, speaking only cone wide band)  got shoved under the,,,steam roller. 
It has always been about xoverxoverxover designs. 
This  forum is so biased if not prejudiced. If not despising against wide band cones. 
AS the poet wrote
*The times are a  changin*
Bob Dylan
richopp
760 posts
 
Magnepan.
larryi
4,090 posts
 
Mozartfan,

Can you list, without acronyms, the specific speaker systems you are referring to as being state of the art, particularly ones that have no crossovers at all?  Aside from a small handful of cone driver speakers with just a single driver (Charney and Voxativ), I have not heard any that, given my taste and priorities, I would consider an acceptable set of compromises.  The other acceptable single driver systems were panel speakers (electrostatics), like the big Soundlab speakers (the biggest compromise with these speakers being the need to play them at somewhat high volume levels). 

I like systems with wide range drivers handling a big part of the upper bass through most of the treble range, probably because they minimize the negative effects of a crossover, but, a crossover is almost always a necessary item in a decent full range system.   Some of the systems I like employing such drivers include very old drivers (like the Jensen M10 fieldcoil driver) as well as modern drivers, including exotic drivers like the Feastrix field coil drivers, and Voxativ drivers.  There are a number of manufacturers using wide range drivers in multi-way systems that sound good to me, such as systems from Soundkaos and Trenner and Friedl.

 I happen to like very much systems employing compression/horn midrange drivers, particularly vintage drivers, like those by Western Electric and the International Projector Company.  Modern fieldcoil drivers from the likes of G.I.P. Laboratories (Japan) sound terrific too.  

If you heard just one example of a crossover "upgrade" that disappointed you, I don't think that there is enough data to generalize about crossovers in general.  If a speaker is not very good, or if a speaker IS very good (including the crossover supplied by the manufacturer), attempts at an upgrade may not work out.  If the "upgrade" consisted of simply putting in a more expensive part with the same electrical value, it will often be the case that the result is hardly a difference or even a negative result.  A local builder whose speakers I really like, totally HATES the sound of the expensive Mundorf caps; for his designs and particular taste, these are bad caps.  A good design is one that is voiced properly and that does not necessarily mean using more expensive parts.


More to discover