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High quality subwoofer - which one?

I’ve owned my C4’s for about six months now, and they are excellent. But, you can’t ask a speaker to things it isn’t big enough to do. What that is, is to go FLAT to 20 Hz. The Vandersteen Quatro’s had built-in 250 watt class B powered subwoofers that are to die for once you hear them. The blemish on the Quatros, and it is a small one, was the slightly veiled lower midrange. The C4’s are absolutely seamless everywhere they go. The lowest bass can be fixed and most would probably say it’s not even necessary...until you hear a real sub system that is. Once you hear the effortlessly smooth low-end of a dedicated sub woofer you just can’t forget about it.

I started looking at subwoofers, and they are expensive, but relative to what this hobby’s cost(s) can be on some item(s), they are affordable. Well, ONE is affordable, anyway. I have three models that seem to all be nice products, and was curious what the feet on the street have used and your likes / dislikes. One model that I have not included needs an external hi-pass filter and I may be dismissing this model out of hand…and shouldn’t be and if you use this model, convince me.

I have a pretty large room (16’ wide x 40’ long x 8.5’ high (ceiling is split at 7.5’ and 9’)) so a bigger sub may be needed. Right now, I’m thinking ONE sub crossed-over pretty low. The C4’s do go pretty deep, but I probably agree that two would be “best” but expensive and the narrower room might make double placement hard. One is a snap, between the speakers away from the wall or near the right corner. I do not play “loud” (80-85 dB SPL average based on my radio shack SPL meter) but still like the smooth deep bass of a sub. Crazy loud isn’t the issue, but the sound quality is.

The choices are mind boggling in cost (JL Audio in mono or stereo) or mono (VELODYNE DD15+) verses stereo (SVS PB13 Ultra) set-ups at the same price. I have three options below to illustrate this.

The set-up that seems too expensive but outrageously good;
JL Audio Fathom f113 - $3600.00 / 13” / 2500 watts peak class D amplifier / sealed box.
But the sub needs a high-pass Cross-over like a Bryston 10B-STD @ $3,500.00

This is expensive compared to the SVS, but is it better than TWO SVS units?
Velodyne DD15 Plus - $4,000.00 / 15.0” / 1250 watt continuous class D amplifier / sealed box.

This seems like a good price but is the product good enough even if the price is? Use TWO of these in place of one DD15 Plus?
SVS PB13-Ultra - $2,000.00 / 13.5” / 1000 watts continuous class D / ported box.

So what have we done with subwoofers and why? This got real complicated real fast. Ported, vented, stereo at the same price as a mono sub ETC. The odds of auditioning these monsters are about zero as you hear the room. My room seems to be pretty good down low based on my Quatro set-up with powered subs. If a decision isn’t easy, I’m missing something…a lot of something’s it turns out.
rower30
vicdamone
850 posts
 
I'm using two Velodyne DD-12 Plus' to fill the bottom octave of my Avalon Acoustics Eidolons. These 12's replaced a first generation DD-18 in a 27' x 46' vaulted ceiling room. The Eidolons are located using the reflective thirds method suggested by Avalon with sound staging as the priority. With this much space around the speakers there is little need to control their bass response so I use the line level inputs on the subs.

The 12's are positioned to the outside of the speakers approximately eight inches forward. I recommend using the Manual EQ Optimization for at least two of the preset parameters. Once familiar Manual EQ takes about twenty to thirty minutes. There is enough flexibility within the Manual EQ to create a seamless integration with the main speakers.

In hindsight two DD-10 Plus' would be more than sufficient. The remote volume control allows for listening position adjustments of individual recordings.
rower30 OP
211 posts
 
New info so far;

REL and Vandersteen use a similar approach, but they BOTH lack any sort of in-room EQ, that is critical to performance. Great HP system and signal integration system on the Vandersteen, though.
-Vandersteen Quatro series speaker on up uses the same clever integration system as their subs, but add eleven band EQ. I wonder WHY this is not on their subs? It is essentially the same system, and they KNOW IT!
-REL is old school move it till it works and HUGE cabinets to get low-end response. Yes,it can sound good but you have no real room for two ported subs. And, they don't High Pass the signal. Somehow, REL seems behind a generation of room EQ. You may get it to sound good, but will you like where it/they are?

Too bad the Vandersteen doesn't have the eleven-band room EQ, I see this as a major goof that was developed in their upper speaker line. I wonder what gives there? So again, they seem behind, too.

The Paradigm SUB1 seems good till you realize it gives up the stereo option at any where near a reasonable price, especially with no real HP option that is affordable. The Sub1 is MONO and EXPENSIVE.

I'm not a proponent of running the C4's full range "over" a sub's response. You would never make any speaker this way so why splices one on top of another for the bass? It makes no sense to me other than HT / LFE doesn't care as much about accuracy.

That said, I've looked into STEREO placement and the time and phase information differs from channel to channel, so stereo (true right and left channel) subs is the way to go. It seems too many people neglect the differences between true right and left and just go for sound QTY. Two 10 inch subs offers more area(157 in SQR) than one 13.5 inch sub (143 in SQR)and faster transients, too. You lose a touch of REALLY deep bass, but should more than make up for it in stereo imaging, response and room smoothness. Dynamic range isn't a problem with two 10" subs.

The price is about the same for two smaller Velodyne DD10 Plus subs as one DD18 Plus. The stereo option is just too compelling to give up. And, the Velodyne brand will let you either go full range or High-pass at 100 or 80 Hz removing the C4's from low bass duties improving intermodulation distortion and imaging precision. To me, that is more important than 4 HZ on the bottom end or a few extra dB of headroom as I don't listen HT "loud".

So far it seems to be the DD-10+ or DD12+ x 2. You get;
Ability to high pass OR run full range.
Room EQ option (manual works great).
True stereo at a reasonable price.
Smaller size with a sealed box.
Good reputation for sound.
Great looks.

Talk me out of this.
rower30 OP
211 posts
 
More info;

I talked with Paradigm about their SUB1 at length and, a friend who is a overseas representative. So, there is "some" bias, true.

But, the SUB 1 has some very good points about it.
1.0 Three directional driver groups melt to a location smoother than one front firing driver. Some say this is less than more of an effect.
2.0 Smaller drivers are very fast.
3.0 Paradigm does seem to have the very best auto EQ on the market, one that really works.
4.0 They say the sub 1 is specifically designed, like most non high pass subs, to work with existing speakers full range, the more full range the better. I'm slowly starting to accept this premise with amazing digital room EQ.
5.0 ONE of these is EXPENSIVE, though ($4,000.00). But, the last major point is that phasing information is above 40Hz or so, and on the C4's I'm told it will set itself in nicely pretty low, so one sub isn't effecting imaging with this full range speaker, or others flat to 40 Hz in room.

Wow, what I ride on subs. I'm off to listen to this thing this weekend. It does seem to be a tidy and accurate sub, with good press, and a good match to the C4's (on paper so far, anyway).

Any good flack to come my way on this choice?
martykl
3,578 posts
 
Rower,

I'd say that your argument for a pair of DD 12s is pretty convincing. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that - if you do pull the trigger on that combo - you will be very happy with the results. It's not the specific approach that I use, but I think it's a very, very good one overall.

Marty
rower30 OP
211 posts
 
Yes, I'm still not fully appreciative of a single sub. The L+R summed info can cancel detail a stereo option won't.

The real direction the market has headed is just the home theater LFE channel option, which is a dedicated summed source, and was never stereo to begin with.

True Hi-fi subs are STEREO on L / R are NOT the same information! This is why true separate subs seem important. And, if you argue L/R differentation it isn't right, you're "wrong" but still overall right as two subs is still better than one for dynamic range and smoothness.

I like the general concept of the Paradigm SUB1, but can't get past a mono sub in my head. It's too expensive for two! And, you lose all the application options (full range verses high-pass option with the Velodyne) so you're stuck losing part of the advantage of using subs, to remove the load off you main speakers. I just can't figure out how this concept is "dated" by DRC software. For HT maybe, but not hi-def stereo.

So right now I'm;
75% two x Velodyne 10 Plus.
25% one x Paradigm SUB 1.

I appreciate everyone's input. Crowd sourcing the answer is usually a better answer!
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