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High quality subwoofer - which one?

I’ve owned my C4’s for about six months now, and they are excellent. But, you can’t ask a speaker to things it isn’t big enough to do. What that is, is to go FLAT to 20 Hz. The Vandersteen Quatro’s had built-in 250 watt class B powered subwoofers that are to die for once you hear them. The blemish on the Quatros, and it is a small one, was the slightly veiled lower midrange. The C4’s are absolutely seamless everywhere they go. The lowest bass can be fixed and most would probably say it’s not even necessary...until you hear a real sub system that is. Once you hear the effortlessly smooth low-end of a dedicated sub woofer you just can’t forget about it.

I started looking at subwoofers, and they are expensive, but relative to what this hobby’s cost(s) can be on some item(s), they are affordable. Well, ONE is affordable, anyway. I have three models that seem to all be nice products, and was curious what the feet on the street have used and your likes / dislikes. One model that I have not included needs an external hi-pass filter and I may be dismissing this model out of hand…and shouldn’t be and if you use this model, convince me.

I have a pretty large room (16’ wide x 40’ long x 8.5’ high (ceiling is split at 7.5’ and 9’)) so a bigger sub may be needed. Right now, I’m thinking ONE sub crossed-over pretty low. The C4’s do go pretty deep, but I probably agree that two would be “best” but expensive and the narrower room might make double placement hard. One is a snap, between the speakers away from the wall or near the right corner. I do not play “loud” (80-85 dB SPL average based on my radio shack SPL meter) but still like the smooth deep bass of a sub. Crazy loud isn’t the issue, but the sound quality is.

The choices are mind boggling in cost (JL Audio in mono or stereo) or mono (VELODYNE DD15+) verses stereo (SVS PB13 Ultra) set-ups at the same price. I have three options below to illustrate this.

The set-up that seems too expensive but outrageously good;
JL Audio Fathom f113 - $3600.00 / 13” / 2500 watts peak class D amplifier / sealed box.
But the sub needs a high-pass Cross-over like a Bryston 10B-STD @ $3,500.00

This is expensive compared to the SVS, but is it better than TWO SVS units?
Velodyne DD15 Plus - $4,000.00 / 15.0” / 1250 watt continuous class D amplifier / sealed box.

This seems like a good price but is the product good enough even if the price is? Use TWO of these in place of one DD15 Plus?
SVS PB13-Ultra - $2,000.00 / 13.5” / 1000 watts continuous class D / ported box.

So what have we done with subwoofers and why? This got real complicated real fast. Ported, vented, stereo at the same price as a mono sub ETC. The odds of auditioning these monsters are about zero as you hear the room. My room seems to be pretty good down low based on my Quatro set-up with powered subs. If a decision isn’t easy, I’m missing something…a lot of something’s it turns out.
rower30
rower30 OP
211 posts
 
More info;

I talked with Paradigm about their SUB1 at length and, a friend who is a overseas representative. So, there is "some" bias, true.

But, the SUB 1 has some very good points about it.
1.0 Three directional driver groups melt to a location smoother than one front firing driver. Some say this is less than more of an effect.
2.0 Smaller drivers are very fast.
3.0 Paradigm does seem to have the very best auto EQ on the market, one that really works.
4.0 They say the sub 1 is specifically designed, like most non high pass subs, to work with existing speakers full range, the more full range the better. I'm slowly starting to accept this premise with amazing digital room EQ.
5.0 ONE of these is EXPENSIVE, though ($4,000.00). But, the last major point is that phasing information is above 40Hz or so, and on the C4's I'm told it will set itself in nicely pretty low, so one sub isn't effecting imaging with this full range speaker, or others flat to 40 Hz in room.

Wow, what I ride on subs. I'm off to listen to this thing this weekend. It does seem to be a tidy and accurate sub, with good press, and a good match to the C4's (on paper so far, anyway).

Any good flack to come my way on this choice?
martykl
3,578 posts
 
Rower,

I'd say that your argument for a pair of DD 12s is pretty convincing. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that - if you do pull the trigger on that combo - you will be very happy with the results. It's not the specific approach that I use, but I think it's a very, very good one overall.

Marty
rower30 OP
211 posts
 
Yes, I'm still not fully appreciative of a single sub. The L+R summed info can cancel detail a stereo option won't.

The real direction the market has headed is just the home theater LFE channel option, which is a dedicated summed source, and was never stereo to begin with.

True Hi-fi subs are STEREO on L / R are NOT the same information! This is why true separate subs seem important. And, if you argue L/R differentation it isn't right, you're "wrong" but still overall right as two subs is still better than one for dynamic range and smoothness.

I like the general concept of the Paradigm SUB1, but can't get past a mono sub in my head. It's too expensive for two! And, you lose all the application options (full range verses high-pass option with the Velodyne) so you're stuck losing part of the advantage of using subs, to remove the load off you main speakers. I just can't figure out how this concept is "dated" by DRC software. For HT maybe, but not hi-def stereo.

So right now I'm;
75% two x Velodyne 10 Plus.
25% one x Paradigm SUB 1.

I appreciate everyone's input. Crowd sourcing the answer is usually a better answer!
vicdamone
850 posts
 
I forgot to mention purchasing Velodyne. It seems Velodyne has scaled back its dealer network somewhat in favor of direct sales. Velodyne warranty parameters and current MSRP should be reviewed on the Velodyne website. Also, the quality and fit and finish of the Plus series is unquestionably superior to Velodyne's previous Digital Drive series and is clearly an entirely new model.

I did compare the 18 and the two 12's and there is no denying a difference in the presentation of the two. Relying on the software display showed a flatter uncorrected response in the 30-40Hz range with the two 12's (the crossover area between the mains and the subs). It's difficult for me to effectively describe the corrected differences between the 18 and the 12's. Briefly, the 12's created an even wider stage with more snap or speed while maintaining a seamless integration with the mains.

This area of integration is were I had difficulties with other brands of subwoofers that I auditioned in my room. These auditions were done two to five years ago and I'm sure changes to some have been made since. Most were done using the first generation of Digital Drive software to more quickly facilitate location and EQ.

I purchased mine from an out of network local brick and mortar which I have been doing business with over the years. I purchased new and the store offers their own warrantee with non factory repair. In my case the savings over MSRP and shipping for repair would allow me to pay for factory service as I live about forty miles from Morgan Hill, California.

There are many out of network retailers that offer Velodyne products if you're so inclined to forgo the manufactures warrantee in lieu of a lower price.
halcro's avatar
halcro
2,664 posts
 
Rower,
Your last posting on the single Paradigm sub seems to contradict your valid (IMO) penultimate conclusion on the benefits of multiple subs does it not?
Having lived with a single REL Stadium II subwoofer in my system for 10 years (running full range and high-passed)......and now having had the two Vandersteen 2Wq subs for five years.......I would never go back to a single sub. Nor to REL unfortunately.
I would second Marty's approval for the pair of DD 12s.
Your analysis and reasoning skills appear quite impressive to me :^)
Good luck.
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