Cables that measure the same but (seem?) to sound different


I have been having an extended dialogue with a certain objectivist who continues to insist to me that if two wires measure the same, in a stable acoustic environment, they must sound the same.

In response, I have told him that while I am not an engineer or in audio, I have heard differences in wires while keeping the acoustic environment static. I have told him that Robert Harley, podcasters, YouTuber's such as Tarun, Duncan Hunter and Darren Myers, Hans Beekhuyzen, Paul McGowan have all testified to extensive listening experiments where differences were palpable. My interlocutor has said that either it is the placebo effect, they're shilling for gear or clicks, or they're just deluded.

I've also pointed out that to understand listening experience, we need more than a few measurement; we also need to understand the physiology and psychological of perceptual experience, as well as the interpretation involved. Until those elements are well understood, we cannot even know what, exactly, to measure for. I've also pointed out that for this many people to be shills or delusionaries is a remote chance at best.

QUESTION: Who would you name as among the most learned people in audio, psychoacoustics, engineering, and psychology who argue for the real differences made by interconnects, etc.?
128x128hilde45
Allow me to commend and support the observations made by the “user,” as quoted by hilde45.
In medical school, I was trained that the way to evaluate the effectiveness or relative strength of a device, a drug, a method, etc. is by conducting a placebo controlled double blind study.  In our area of interest, the data for such a study would be generated by panels of experienced listeners (audiophiles).  I suspect that manufacturers of tweaks, like cables, will not conduct or publish such  tests because of fear of the effects of the results on sales.
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@decooney 
After all the attempted measuring is exhausted, Taste wine, Listen to cable changes.  
In the end its up to you what is good.


I think the opposite side would re-phrase your saying this way:

"After all the attempted measuring is exhausted, save your money safe in the knowledge that there are no cables worth the money you would have spent because there are no differences to be heard. Realize how good it is to know that there was nothing there and that it's better to hear differences where they really exist then to hear them where they do not exist."

The side that argues there are no differences in cables could go further and say that if you save money and time not chasing cable differences, you can spend that money and time on things that do matter, not least music, speakers, etc.

I suspect that most people who hear cable differences know this -- thus, they are conscious of the risk of opportunity cost they take when they chase cable sounds. Why do they take this risk? They'd argue that it's because they actually hear a difference. If they didn't, the rational thing to do would be to cut their losses, sell their cables and get some money back, and then move on to more fecund strategies for better sound. 


@hilde45  So what is your opinion on the cable question? Do you you hear differences between cables and buy what you can afford or do you buy inexpensive cables because you don't hear any differences?
hilde45's map metaphor, and djones51's distinction between the "two systems"—"objective" measurements and "subjective" perceptions—calls to mind the Borges story "Of Exactitude in Science" (which, in its entirety, is just one paragraph long—itself a kind of pun). Borges imagines a culture that has developed cartography to such a point that their best map of a territory is the same size as the territory

If a "better" map is one that indicates greater detail, then the "best" map would be one that left out no detail at all. But that would not be a map, it would simply be a pointless duplicate of the area mapped!

The relevance of this parable here is this, I think. Even if, in some hypothetical future, science were to develop measurements to the point that no subjective perception could not be rendered "objectively," this would still not touch what's at issue here (namely, the claim that if two things—power cords, interconnects, whatever—measure the same, then they must sound the same). If neuroscience is one day able to "map" the neural connections that objectively correspond to the experience of tasting a fine Cabernet Sauvignon, that neurological correlate will capture nothing at all of the experience of tasting that fine wine. We do indeed have two different "systems" here; even if there's some one-to-one correspondence that can be mapped, they are not ontologically identical, they belong to different categories of being.

And yet...although I can't have a pain in your tooth, if we are to discuss our preferences—which are strictly incommunicable, as they are grounded in our private subjective experiences—then we need some kind of common language. That's what science, and "measurements," purport to provide. I can't share the experience of my neural firings with you directly. But I can point to the objectively measurable phenomena that gave rise to them. Sure, wine tasting is "subjective," and so is music appreciation. But there are wines that command huge sums of money, just as huge sums of money are spent on power cords and cables, and we want to believe there's some "objective" justification for this other than simple taste and preference.

We want to believe this, but it may not be so. The differences between audio systems may ultimately be no more "objectively" constituted than the difference in preferences for Mozart and Black Sabbath. The same may be true of wine. On our 25th anniversary, a friend prepared a seven-course Thomas Keller dinner, I opened a 1988 Chateau Mouton-Rothchild I'd been holding for more than a decade, and our daughter took her first sip of wine. A great one to start with, no? We all waited eagerly to hear her opinion. She swirled, sniffed, tasted, and declared: "It tastes like wine." Indeed! 

One last thing. djones51 concludes by saying that "natural physical phenomena [are] oblivious to our rules, under the right conditions electricity will stop your heart whether we believe it or not." But that's so only to the extent that electricity is obeying our rules—in this case, the rules that govern how the heart operates and how electrical current interacts with that operation. You may want to say that these are genuinely "objective" facts, but to the extent that they are observed, named, measured—in short, experienced—they, too, are grounded in subjectivity, what philosophers call "mind." Kant argues that space and time themselves are features of mind—"forms of sensibility," to be specific—and do not exist except in consciousness. In the last analysis, "objectivity" is really only universal subjectivity: what is "true for everyone" is merely that which everyone will experience in relevantly similar ways.

Now, while we don't all experience Mozart (or Black Sabbath) in relevantly similar ways, we do all experience sound waves according to the laws of acoustics and auditory perception. This is why many audiophiles insist that all music will sound better on a better system (although it is also true, of course, that, for instance, bass-heavy music will sound best on a system with especially strong bass, etc.). The laws of physics don't make the judgments of taste which a musical preference presupposes. What the audio system does, more or less well (and this should be measurable) is to reproduce the aural phenomena, governed by the laws of physics, that the recording technology committed to the original source. Are these laws also "subjective"? Well, yes, at least in so far as they depend on consciousness. But they are "universally subjective" in a way that taste is not. Science gets better and better at identifying, describing and quantifying what is universally subjective, and so, in principle the audible differences between interconnects must be "measurable," even if not yet, if they exist at all. But those still hypothetical measurements no more guarantee an agreement in preference than would a comparative chemical analysis of Chateau Mouton-Rothchild and Chateau Lafite-Rothchild.

In the last analysis, Mozart, Black Sabbath, Chateau Mouton-Rothchild and the sound the wind makes in the chimney are "enjoyable" and "valuable" only if some consciousness values them. Value is not measurable. I prefer the Jupiter Symphony to John Cage's 4'33". But there is no "objective" justification for that preference. They're both objectively "aural phenomena," governed by exactly the same laws.