Law of Diminishing Returns - CD/SACD Players

Saxo, I agree with your audio dealers who believe that the source component is the most important. A mid-fi system that is merely listenable with a CDP source, usually becomes quite musical after substituting a TT source. I don't think any other component swap can quite pull this off.

When modding a CDP, I always compare each change to two fixed reference points: at the low end of the scale, an old PS Audio Lambda II/Theta Gen 5a combo; at the high end of the scale, a nice Lyra/Graham/VPI TNT TT. After a certain point the comparison to the old transport/DAC combo becomes so hobbled as to be irrelevant. But the comparison to the TT is always nip & tuck. Each source reveals relative superiorities & deficiencies in distinct vectors of the listening experience. There is no clear winner without admitting to subjectivity in weighting & summing up the differences.

As remarked by Tvad, I think this nip & tuck also characterizes comparisons between the top CDPs, to the point that there is blurring of subjective and objective impressions at the top of the heap.

That said, when comparing components it may be useful to believe that convergence on "the absolute sound" only begins at 8 or 9 points on a scale of 1 to 10. There are few components these days that score below 5, but there are certainly many mid-fi pieces that cluster in the 6-7 range. I try to imagine a second 10-point scale that spans say from 8 to 10 of the first 10-point scale. Using this convention, a hi-end component that scores 9 on the first scale is perhaps 5x better than a component that scores 8 on the first scale. As silly as this method may seem, it certainly correlates well with the stratospheric MSRPs at the hi-end of the hi-end!

>>as are all the players over $3K. The extra dollars do not buy additional performance.<<

LOL

As Sweringen said of the gimp ascending staircase, "With every step a new adventure."

To those of you that have taken the time to respond, thank you! I was hoping that a few owners of the top tier machines such as dCS, EMM Labs, Reimyo, Wadia, etc would also contribute to the discussion as well. The reason I say this is because I believe it often takes more than a quick A-B comparison of machines to distinguish the sonic differences. I'm not discounting the opinions of those who have had the opportunity to audition the top tier machines, but I think that an audition in someone else's system is not a fair evaluation of a particular product's attributes. We know the sound of our own systems the best. I'm guessing that owners of top tier machines have only moved from one top tier machine to another instead of moving "up" the quality/price (assuming there's a correlation) ladder. Since there is no one "best" player, each of these top digital players vary on their sonic presentation, depending on system synergy and personal preference.

With that said, I agree with Tvad that one's associated components must be capable to revealing the differences in players. I've listened to a $500 Cambridge player and the $2200 Arcam FMJ CD23 and believe there is a big difference in performance. It may not be 4x better than the Cambridge, but the difference to my ears is worth the price differential. I posted this thread because every now and then a new, hot component comes out that is given rave reviews by audio magazines; one such component is the Rega Apollo. Reviewers speak of the Apollo very highly, but they fail to make comments comparing this machine with the very best. I know it's not fair comparing a $1000 machine to a $XX,XXX priced machine, but it would be very interesting to know what we, as aspiring audiophiles, are missing out on. Another example is the $3000 Ayre Cx7e; it's another player that has received critical acclaim/awards. How does this player compare to the best? Magazine reviewers probably don't want to tell us in their reviews because it poses a degree of negativity towards a product that may very well be a class leader at a certain price point.

Martykl and Fatcataudio...Thank you for your comments. It's refreshing to hear that "a $1000 player will give you about 50 percent..."....and to hear that a highly recognized player such as the Rega Apollo is a good player...but doesn't compare to the Cary 303. Those are the types of comparisons that I want to read about.

Most audiophiles, when they're in upgrade mode, want a "step" improvement....a "wow" factor upgrade. The purpose of my thread was to try to determine:

i) how much one would have to spend to achieve the next step improvement (and to also determine how many steps there are to reach the top)

ii) at what price point you one gets close to sonic nirvana without spending five figures ie..bang for your buck.

Past a certain price point, only we can decide how much more we want to pay to extract that extra few percentage points of performance. Once you reach the top tier of players, I would think that differences between them should not bring about a "wow" response. Top tier players are like fine wines; they all taste good, but it depends on your personal preference.

I appreciated the comments regarding modded units. I knew that modded units would be part of the discussion. There seems to be a big concensus regarding the quality of sound from these types of machines. If I wasn't living in Canada, I would seriously consider auditioning these units.

Again, thanks for everyone's replies!

calgarian