So Many Apogees for sale, and so few takers

Hi Bob (Baranyi), I'm doing great and hope you are, too. Sorry to hear you weren't able to try the Lazarus, but so it goes, and I gather you gave up on the Apogee project. Anyway, stop by next time you're up this way, I'm open just about 24/7 :-)

Hi Josh358,

It's been a while since I heard the Tymps. I take your point. They were lovely. I cannot imagine them capable of 120db no matter how much power was used.

If only I was bright enough to do the maths! I'm guessing but 4ohm and 85db/w@ 1m sensitivity would need a lot of power for 120db. Surely into 3 or 4,000w to even get close let alone to not burn out something.

The type of startling dynamic swings I am meaning are not possible with planars unfortunately. The only reason I moved away from them to be honest.

Power only gets you so far. I tried. You can get grip and deeper bass, but never that confidence that someone hit something really hard or blew a trumpet ffff without that slight softening. Get someone to blow a trumpet loud in your room. You will jump out of your skin!

As brilliant as the planars I had were in every other area, there was always a constriction that one gets used to once you get beyond a medium to high SPL.

I used multiple subs to help pressure the room which helped to a point, but I doubt I could get much higher than 100 db peaks effortlessly with full programme music.

Try Kraftwerks minimum maximum on the maggie and measure the SPL. I reckon at 90db the bass panel will be compressing and rattling against the magnets or resonating the panel with the bass drum. Even with an arc welder as an amp and spiked braced stands with weight on them. But I completely understand your love.

Have a word with Graz re your Apogee mids... You will be sorted right out. His ribbons are excellent.

I had epic listening sessions with modified Maggies and reconditioned Apogees. Fabulous speakers.

I fell for high sensitivity horns in the form of the AG Trio with flea power amps. My final resting place! They have the naturalness and speed with dynamic freedom you can only dream of in planar land. It allows the use of extremely linear amps with single gain stages. This alone is a revelation in sonics especially for layering, naturalness and timbre.

Hi Chadeffect,

According to the manual for my IVa's, they "can exceed 110 dB RMS at the listeners seat in a 16' x 25' room with an amplifier rated at 200 watts at 8 ohms."

Someone on the Audio Asylum measured some Tympani woofers and I think he said they started to compress at 105 dB or so. I don't remember the exact figure, but it was over 100 dB. This is in the ballpark of a dynamic woofer, which is one of the reasons I like the Tympanis so much -- the combine, for me, planar clarity with near dynamic slam and extension. The dynamic range can be increased even more if you cross a dynamic sub over at 40 Hz, relieving the Tympanis of some bottom duty.

OK, so with my somewhat smaller 1-D's, my woofers didn't bottom or rattle at fuse blowing levels, which was with the 2-1/2 amp fuses. That would be over 25 watts RMS = more than 250-2500 watts on the peaks (since music has a 10-20 dB peak/average ratio), and we're only talking about the tweeters. As I think I said, the only time the woofers ever bottomed or sounded unhappy was on the Telarc 1812.

That SPL capability is why Satie went with the Tympanis -- there was a long discussion about 120 dB+ SPL levels from planars on the Audio Asylum. He put a 2500 watt pro amp on the IV's woofer panels (a bit less efficient than the IVa's) to get that kind of output. No problem, the woofers aren't even fused because they have so much thermal radiating area. You'll hit the magnets before you'll risk melting them.

At the same time, in my experience, while the Tympanis will do peaks in the 118 db @ 1 meter + range that's the bare minimum for plausible if not completely accurate reproduction of classical music (and too low for jazz), neither the Tympanis nor most audiophile dynamics can put out the uncompressed levels at the listening seat tht you need for reproduction of peaks at natural levels.

Big studio monitors can do this and it's one of the few areas in which I found the sound in the studio superior to home reproduction. Horns can as well. So I know exactly what you're saying about dynamic freedom. And I agree that almost no planar will do it, and almost no consumer dynamic. (I say "almost" because the Wisdom planars will apparently put out that kind of SPL and more, at IIRC $60,000 per side. They use some very interesting technology, including silver foam to remove heat from the planar tweeter.)

Great suggestion about Graz, BTW, thanks.

Hi josh,

Very interesting. I wonder if maybe some of the lower perceived loudness from the panel is about phase? There can be a diffuse nature to planar sound. Lacking that initial impact you get from a big studio monitor or horn.

Placement from the rear wall and side wall with soft furnishing behind the panel always helped in my experience. Somehow focussing it and making it more coherent. Also using extremely good source and amps of course!

I had forgotten about Wisdom speakers. I have never heard them. But there was a model I admired from afar. I think it was the called the LS4. It seems to hook on the wall. I wonder how they get around that congested sound you would get it you tried that proximity to the rear wall with a maggie or Apogee?

Anyone know why Wisdom speakers are so expensive? Or is that just their wisdom?

All planers seem to be finicky suckers when it comes to setup. I think it is because their design inherently integrates the room, rather than trying to diffuse and or eliminate it with sound treatments and such with monitors and other cone designs. They also have very narrow sweet spots. But set up properly I don't hear any of that diffuse nature, at least not with my Apogees.