Law of Accelerated Returns

@mapman 1+++! That is essence is the problem. Very few systems including the ultra expensive ones can produce a SOTA performance. They can be VERY impressive compared to the usual and they can have very balanced tonality and excellent timbre but they do not image at the level available on many recordings.

Many think they have a great image because they hear the guitar over there and the bass in the middle and a cymbal to the left. They can even tell that the cymbal is behind the other instruments thinking they have "3D' imaging. Performing at this level is not all that difficult and can be achieved by pretty much any serious audiophile as they have heard other systems perform at this level and know what they should be looking for. Imaging the third dimension means placing an image in space that has location and depth/size. Imagine you can walk around the image of that trumpet or piano, the third dimension is not the size of the venue it is producing instruments and voices with depth. The instrument and voice have 3 dimensions. 

IMHE this is the hardest characteristic to reproduce. Energy created by the room and reflections blur out the third dimension. Channels that have different amplitude and impulse patterns also blur out the third dimension. These three problems compromise at least 90% of the systems out there. Some speaker/rooms will never be able to perform at this level. Others can but are not adjusted correctly. Only by luck can you get this out of the box and only the very misinformed are going to get there by placing little discs next the their interconnects. Do you have to spend a lot of money? Depends what you think a lot of money is. I think you can get there at a lower volume for maybe $50K. The full Monty takes at least $100K for a system with a turntable. Many are spending $250K just for speakers. The most reliable way to get there is with someone who has a lot of measurement equipment and knows what they are doing. As I have said before, it is exactly the same as video projectors. No projector will project colors correctly out of the box. It has to be calibrated and requires a lot of knowledge and expensive equipment. Some projectors, like the one I just bought, will never get it right because they can not do black. You only get shades of gray out of them. Live and learn.   

Point is you have to have the skills to appreciate the tools you are using.

Damned young whippersnappers on new Ducati's! In my day you earned to right to buy a nice new bike. Your statements betray the precise attitude I was referencing. 

There have been several times in my audio journey when I listened to a system that was beyond my ability to fully process it.  Over time and with experience, our brain fine tunes itself to discern the differences in fidelity.  

The differences I hear in my system to a non audiophile might be difficult for them to hear.  When I point things out, sometimes they can hear it, sometimes not.

So perhaps the law of diminishing returns also plays into not yet having the developed palate to hear the full differences.

I think what he's saying is that the sonic differences are subtle.

To the average person on the street spending $5,000 dollars on a stereo is quite extravagant.  To spend 10x or even 100x that amount is nearly incomprehensible.  I will never say that you can't get better sound by spending more money, nor do I begrudge anybody so inclined.  I just think the concept of accelerated returns in audio reproduction is false.  I find it interesting that nobody has offered actual examples of it happening.

@mijostyn

To your point, I have heard only one setup EVER that did the 3-d soundstage to the extent you describe...and I have heard 100’s over the years I would estimate.

As I have alluded to on occasion in past threads here, that was a demo of an all mbl system with mbl 111a speakers set up at then United Home Audio in Annapolis Junction, MD, in a showroom optimally constructed for the purpose unlike anyone is likely to have at home, probably over 10 years ago.

Same system at shows, less optimally setup...back with the pack.

So I have seen what it takes and factor that into what I do at home to the extent needed for me to be happy in lieu of setting up a custom room like that and going full omni. Something I greatly appreciated but do not need to get my endless hours of enjoyment from my music at home. THis ain’t the Olympics and I have no preconception about being the best in the world. Too much trouble! But never should be too much trouble to at least learn from the best and apply what you learn as you may. :^)

My system(s): Sound Chaser | Virtual Listening Room (audiogon.com)

I have heard only one setup EVER that did the 3-d sound stage

Same here it was the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and I have given up on trying replicate that sound years ago. I can not replicate Orchestra Hall in Chicago at my home in the burbs. I have tried and my gear and room have their moments.