@artemus_5 @bubba12
Yes, I was shocked and perplexed when I first moved from a good ss (Pass x350) to a tubed Audio Research Reference 160s. Two things immediately struck me… what a big reduction of slam… and how much better and more articulate the bass was… and well, the Pass is never going back into my system.
I was very perplexed. The Pass was so much thinner across the audio spectrum (particularly near the bass) but very very fast at delivering bass. My conclusion was that the slam was very artificial, like turning up the contrast too much on a photograph.. The contrast between the thin midrange and huge bump in bass. The Audio Research was slower (like natural… not sluggish) and amazingly detailed… differentiating all the nuances of the bass… not just a single thump.
|
+1 pesky, elliott, realthing - It has to do with the control of the woofer, higher damping factor is a major player in this. It does not have to do with how low a frequency the amp/driver will produce. If you want the deepest bass, it comes from a SS amplifier as tube amps just don't go down ultra-low. The limitation in deep bass is the output transformers in most tube amps. The only exception I've heard is David Berning tube amplifiers, with no output transformer. Have fun!
|
@ghdprentice I second your observations, I made the same.
Solid state amplifiers give a boost to midbass, and have relatively lean deep bass, upper bass, and very thin midrange, and then a shrill top end. Talking about a good design, we can avoid the shrill top end when staying below 1% of the total power capacity. (Such as, under 0,5W output for a 50WPC SS amplifier.) However, the hollowness in the midrange, and the peak in the midbass still stays. The midbass peak also prevents the deep bass to be fully appreciated. Sure, SS designs can produce very high energy levels for deep bass and midbass, but with a total lack of tonal control and textural resolution. In my experience people think of energy and power delivery when voting for SS, and of texture and body when going for tubes.I have never heard the two occurring together: overbearing midbass energy with accurate tonal & textural content...
The best example I found for solid state high fidelity sound is the Michael Yee PA1 of my buddy, modified by the legendary Stu Ono: this solid state amplifier has a naturalness, high fidelity to acoustic instruments very much resembling a very good push pull amplifier (directly compared to my heavily upgraded Ampex 6516), but it still retains this midbass hump and midrange valley compared to a neutral presentation. While the solid state presentation appears to have quite a bit more slam at first hearing, listening to it at high volume for several hours makes me realize its gimmickiness, and I want to hear the missing texture of the bass, and the deep bass, which is hidden by the midbass hump.
Also, the texture and speed of bass instruments is provided by upper bass and midrange: the 200Hz-2kHz region is vital for accurate bass instrument speed and texture perception.Without the 200Hz-2kHz region any amount of bass we get is a formless blob of amorphous "woof". Tube amps can produce much better texture for bass instruments (double bass, church organ, basso singer) because of their coherence and integrity across the spectrum. And the SS is the uncontested king of that midbass slam, aand while that is the no 1 sonic goal of some people, for others it's an undesirable feature - not because they are dumb and do not recognize slam, but because the slam is overdone. (Same issue as rare or overdone steak... just know what you want, and choose the path that gets you there,)
Ask the conductor, violinist, or classical music lover, and 99% will vouch for good tube amps having the high fidelity / natural reproduction. Ask the rock drummer or concert goer, and they will go for the transistor amps. No wonder, as they use high power transistor gear in the concerts! Because that's how the concerts sound like. The midbass XXX large slam should be there for a live experience....
|
@realworldaudio, I’ll mildly object to be called dumb, but perception of individuals kinda gets lost in the stew.....😏
As one who runs amt’s, it’s a snap to employ a sub for the bottom ’boom’, but hard to source a mid-bass>upper bass (or low mid) that can keep pace yet keep the ’slam’ at bay with more apropos levels...
Varies with the program played, but... smaller drivers with SS equipment seem to work best, as you note, in this range.
And one can tweak the ’slam’ to taste; eq in my religion is not a sin. :)
Regards, J
|
@asvjerry Hello J, I am a little surprised by your reaction, esp as I do not know who you are. I did not call, nor presume anyone dumb. I'm sorry if I have offended you or anyone: in my two posts above I have expressed positives and negatives for BOTH technologies (tube & SS). Forum members, if you thought that I was out of line in my posts please let me know.
J, you have described a situation that takes exploration to a very different perspective than the one @ghdprentice and I were exploring in our posts. When we employ a sub, we can alter the low end response to almost any degree, so that makes tube vs solid state issue regarding slam and tightness quite irrelevant as adding a sub and playing with levels and energy delivery can be done with both technologies.
Kind regards,
Janos
|
