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What is Tight Bass?

I’m confused. Speaker size with a large woofer…can it be tight?

is it about efficiency? Amp power? Electrostatic?

128x128moose89
realworldaudio
174 posts
 
@ghdprentice I second your observations, I made the same.

 

Solid state amplifiers give a boost to midbass, and have relatively lean deep bass, upper bass, and very thin midrange, and then a shrill top end. Talking about a good design, we can avoid the shrill top end when staying below 1% of the total power capacity. (Such as, under 0,5W output for a 50WPC SS amplifier.) However, the hollowness in the midrange, and the peak in the midbass still stays. The midbass peak also prevents the deep bass to be fully appreciated. Sure, SS designs can produce very high energy levels for deep bass and midbass, but with a total lack of tonal control and textural resolution. In my experience people think of energy and power delivery when voting for SS, and of texture and body when going for tubes.I have never heard the two occurring together: overbearing midbass energy with accurate tonal & textural content...

 

The best example I found for solid state high fidelity sound is the Michael Yee PA1 of my buddy, modified by the legendary Stu Ono: this solid state amplifier has a naturalness, high fidelity to acoustic instruments very much resembling a  very good push pull amplifier (directly compared to my heavily upgraded Ampex 6516), but it still retains this midbass hump and midrange valley compared to a neutral presentation. While the solid state presentation appears to have quite a bit more slam at first hearing, listening to it at high volume for several hours makes me realize its gimmickiness, and I want to hear the missing texture of the bass, and the deep bass, which is hidden by the midbass hump.

Also, the texture and speed of bass instruments is provided by upper bass and midrange: the 200Hz-2kHz region is vital for accurate bass instrument speed and texture perception.Without the 200Hz-2kHz region any amount of bass we get is a formless blob of amorphous "woof". Tube amps can produce much better texture for bass instruments (double bass, church organ, basso singer) because of their coherence and integrity across the spectrum. And the SS is the uncontested king of that midbass slam, aand while that is the no 1 sonic goal of some people, for others it's an undesirable feature - not because they are dumb and do not recognize slam, but because the slam is overdone. (Same issue as rare or overdone steak... just know what you want, and choose the path that gets you there,)

Ask the conductor, violinist, or classical music lover, and 99% will vouch for good tube amps having the high fidelity / natural reproduction. Ask the rock drummer or concert goer, and they will go for the transistor amps. No wonder, as they use high power transistor gear in the concerts! Because that's how the concerts sound like. The midbass XXX large slam should be there for a live experience....

 

asvjerry's avatar
asvjerry
4,757 posts
 

@realworldaudio, I’ll mildly object to be called dumb, but perception of individuals kinda gets lost in the stew.....😏

As one who runs amt’s, it’s a snap to employ a sub for the bottom ’boom’, but hard to source a mid-bass>upper bass (or low mid) that can keep pace yet keep the ’slam’ at bay with more apropos levels...

Varies with the program played, but... smaller drivers with SS equipment seem to work best, as you note, in this range.
And one can tweak the ’slam’ to taste; eq in my religion is not a sin. :)

Regards, J

realworldaudio
174 posts
 

@asvjerry Hello J, I am a little surprised by your reaction, esp as I do not know who you are. I did not call, nor presume anyone dumb. I'm sorry if I have offended you or anyone: in my two posts above I have expressed positives and negatives for BOTH technologies (tube & SS). Forum members, if you thought that I was out of line in my posts please let me know.

J, you have described a situation that takes exploration to a very different perspective than the one @ghdprentice and I were exploring in our posts. When we employ a sub, we can alter the low end response to almost any degree, so that makes tube vs solid state issue regarding slam and tightness quite irrelevant as adding a sub and playing with levels and energy delivery can be done with both technologies. 

Kind regards,

Janos

mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 

What does a kick drum sound like? What does an electric guitar sound like?

There is accurate bass then there is everything else and all of us including myself are listening to everything else.

Bass is the hardest part of the audio spectrum to get right. Everything wants to resonate at bass frequencies, rooms interfere, distortion in drivers increases dramatically and getting drivers and electronics to put out realistic levels below 40 Hz is difficult and expensive. 

I use an unamplified upright bass to judge accuracy. Still, each one sounds different. Less is more. Bass tends to get a lot of garbage added to it like enclosure resonance. Below 40 Hz it is more about feeling than hearing. You have to learn to listen to what you are feeling. A good example is listen to computer speakers. You hear harmonics of bass tones which will give you the bass line but you feel absolutely nothing. Bass is very powerful. When you get a chance get as close as you can to an upright bass. It is not all that loud but the lowest notes will shake your gut. That is what you want to get out of your system. Good luck, you'll need it. 

artemus_5's avatar
artemus_5
1,992 posts
 

@ghdprentice

Yes, I was shocked and perplexed when I first moved from a good ss (Pass x350) to a tubed Audio Research Reference 160s. Two things immediately struck me… what a big reduction of slam… and how much better and more articulate the bass was… and well, the Pass is never going back into my system.

Imagine my surprise when I bought an inexpensive Bob Latino ST-70 just to dip my foot into the tube world and finding that it bested my SS amp (CJ 2500A). I sold the Cj and never looked back.

@realworldaudio

the main barrier to good bass was looseness,...

Solid state amplifiers give a boost to midbass, and have relatively lean deep bass, upper bass, and very thin midrange, and then a shrill top end.

So many good points that its hard to point out just one. But your description of the modern SS amp is spot on to my experience.I first noticed it in the late 80’s when I bought a Luxman R115 to replace my Harmon Kardon 730. I disliked the Lux and sold it & got the 730 back in service. But you are right about early amp’s bass being very loose. I never heard a Pioneer that didn’t have flabby bass.

In 2000, I started putting together a better system but never found a SS amp that was satisfactory. It was an inexpensive tube amp that gave me back the bass line I had been seeking.

FWIW, I am making my judgements here based on years of playing drums and having the bass amp right next to me I also spent many years in the clubs & festivals listening to amplified and unamplified. music. Bass is not sharp, quick or tight. Bass is more rounded with body and a slight amount of sustain which I call overhang. The exception is Funk where the bass player snaps and slaps the strings. But it is a technique used and not its natural sound.

@mijostyn 

Bass is the hardest part of the audio spectrum to get right.

That is my opinion also. maybe because so much of the music rides on the bass

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