2. amps-preamps
  3. 175407-20253

Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...

I'm old enough to remember Julian Hersch from Audio magazine and his very unscientific view that all amplifiers sounded the same once they met a certain threshold.  Now the site Audio Science Review pushes the same.

I call these views unscientific as some one with a little bit of an engineering background as well as data science and epidemiology.  I find both of these approaches limited, both in technology used and applied and by stretching the claims for measurements beyond their intention, design and proof of meaning.

Without getting too much into that, I have a very pragmatic point of view.  Listen to the following three amplifier brands:

  • Pass Labs
  • Luxman
  • Ayre

If you can't hear a difference, buy the cheapest amplifier you can.  You'll be just as happy.  However, if you can, you need to evaluate the value of the pleasure of the gear next to your pocket book and buy accordingly.  I don't think the claim that some gear is pure audio jewelry, like a fancy watch which doesn't tell better time but looks pretty.  I get that, and I've heard that.  However, rather than try to use a method from Socrates to debate an issue to the exact wrong conclusion, listen for yourself.

If you wonder if capacitors sound different, build a two way and experiment for yourself.  Doing this leaves you with a very very different perspective than those who haven't. You'll also, in both cases, learn about yourself.  Are you someone who can't hear a difference?  Are you some one who can? What if you are some one who can hear a difference and doesn't care?  That's fine.  Be true to yourself, but I find very little on earth less worthwhile than having arguments about measurements vs. sound quality and value. 

To your own self and your own ears be true.  And if that leads you to a crystal radio and piezo ear piece so be it.  In my own system, and with my own speakers I've reached these conclusions for myself and I have very little concern for those who want to argue against my experiences and choices. 

 

erik_squires
erik_squires OP
16,118 posts
 

Folks, it doesn't matter what sounds like what! I know people who's stereos would send most people running out of the listening room holding their ears because the listener has hearing damage in the high frequency area. IF YOU ENJOY X, THEN LISTEN AWAY,

 

I have proposed this for a very very long time.  While pundits (like me) can talk about differences, the only opinion that matters is that of the person purchasing the gear.

If you listen to my opinion, at all, you should do so only in how it may help you hear differences, not necessarily, or at all, about which is better.   Same for reviewers.  Having said this, my opinion is still a hundred times better than the price tag for deciding what sounds better. 😂

There is NO worse judge of audio sound quality or fit for an end user than the price tags.

jbhiller's avatar
jbhiller
1,430 posts
 

First off, +1 on what @atmasphere said.

Secondly, the folks at ASR display myopic hubris. Many folks there literally would take a $400 Topping amplifier over an Atmasphere, Pass Labs, D’Agostino, etc. amp based on measurements alone--without even test driving them.

Go try posting on ASR and asking them how things sound. They can be so evangelical with this framework. Many, not all, of them do not talk about how things sound. The ASR purists believe if it tests better it must be better. End of story.

While testing has its place and can be of meaningful value, it’s not everything.

Also, I’m not entirely sure ASR is truly an objective service to the audiophile community. ASR may be monetizing a testing operation, and some folks say that ASR is tied to certain brands. I believe there’s a thread at Super Best Audio Friends or something where they have intel that Amir has a relationship with Topping or SMSL or one of those brands.

See Audio Science Review, Review 

 

 

atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,834 posts
 

Voltage from a tube amplifier OPT will vary considerably depending on the speaker impedance at the test frequency.

@ieales This statement is incorrect. This amp uses about 15 dB of feedback, allowing it to behave as a voltage source with most speakers. The variance at the output transformer is thus minimized. If it was zero feedback then it would behave as you describe.

Most everything has a signature sound characteristic. Every resistor and capacitor has their own sound.  That also goes for transformers and chokes.  Even the chassis material has a sound. 

While this is correct, it is incorrect to say that in all cases the 'sound' of the various parts actually influences the output. If the amplifier has enough Gain Bandwidth Product to support a large amount of feedback (+35dB) over the entire audio band then the various parts 'sound' will go away. Most amplifier designs cannot meet this criteria and so the parts influence the sound as you describe.

 

 

roxy1927
131 posts
 

I have very limited experience compared to a lot of people here but I've heard all three in my system and one was the clear winner.

I would agree pre amp is the most important thing which has had the greatest effect on my system.

moto_man
363 posts
 

It seems to me, that the bottom line here is that all people hear differently. Some people have very acute hearing; other people don't. Those people who have very acute hearing maybe will hear a differences between various amplifiers or preamplifiers and those who don't have such acute hearing will not.  Those who don't hear a difference will think that there are no differences, while those who have better hearing your differences. The real issue is how you feel about the sound of your equipment. If you can't hear a difference there's no reason to spend more. I know I for one get jazzed up about some component based on reviews that call it the best thing since sliced bread and I am compelled to want to buy that piece of equipment. When I put it in my system I find that it might have a better sound in some respects but no means is it "a night and day oh my God I have a new system type" difference like the reviewed portrayed.  I think that the real interesting point made by the OP in this case is the diminishing marginal utility of equipment. Is there a $10,000 difference between a $10,000 preamp and a $20,000 one, or is it just audible. If it's just "audible" then, one must decide whether that "audible" difference is worth another $10K.  That is a personal choice and there is really no right or wrong.

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