Is a Garrard 401 or 301 "accurate"??


So my question is this..I have been running a modified Garrard 401 or 301 for the last 20 years.  Right now I have a 401 in a slate plinth, after market Idler, bearing and platter.  I honestly have not really done much listening to modern high end turntables.  Now that I've been spending more on my system over the last few years, the rest of the components including arm, cartridge and phono stage are of a higher caliber than they were 20 years ago.  I am wondering if what I am hearing is a colored presentation.  To my ears it sounds great but it's a very full weighty kind of sound.  Just wondering what people who have compared a high end table directly to a modded garrard feel.  Are the Garrard's presentation one that is not necessarily tonally accurate??  Thanks David  

kozzmo999

I would just keep the Garrard.

I have a 301 in a Woodsong plinth with an upgraded pulley, idler wheel and a Shindo bearing and platter. Some modern turntables may do some things better, but it will be difficult to exceed the overall sound.

My advice is to buy a table that is built to last and that is easy to set up (the latter applying primarily to the arm) because your biggest obstacle to accuracy is your cartridge, the cartridge set-up, and the spotty quality of pressings. So back to your question-see my profile if you wish-my answer is "YES!". 

@noromance I have been fortunate to share in a variety of demonstrations from Idler Drives, I have also heard Thorens Models and the Garrard 301, but these are too long ago in the past to make a recollection of.

In the earlier post, I should have added a Corian (owned) and Polybentonite Resin Plinth, to the list of Plinths I have been demonstrated in use on a Idler Drive.

There is at present, a move toward Densified Wood in certain communities, where the board is to be used as a Plinth Material for Idler Drives and the users of Plinths produced from Board such as the Brand Panzerholz or Permali are making very positive reports.

I own boards in both Densified Wood Brands but have these materials at present reserved for another Model of TT and Plinth Design. 

My most recent experience of being demonstrated a Idler Drive is a Garrard 401 that has been mounted in a Plinth with a Top Plate produced from a Side and Top Pressure Compressed Bamboo Board.  When Bamboo is produced using this method, the Damping Factor is 0.200.

The Damping Factor of Permali is 0.688, Panzerholz is 0.599 and Polybentonite Resin is 0.618, the resin is a common 'go to' material for a Idler Drive, it is Massey and as far as I know, it does not dissipate energy as efficiently as a Densified Wood or the lesser efficient Compressed Bamboo.   

The Bamboo Top Plate Mounted 401 > Origin Live ' Illustrious ' Tonearm > Sumiko Pearwood Cart'  has had Isoacoustic Footers and has been mounted on a Sub Plinth assembly produced from my owned Panzerholz Board and AT-666 Footers.   

The demonstration proved to be quite attractive and memorable, the 401 had recently replaced a SME 20/12 > SME V, the group in attendance and the 401 owner were not missing the sold of SME equipment that were all quite familiar with.

Through a friend I have listened to various works undertaken on a standard Lenco GL 75 Bearing and their methods adopted to rigidly secure the Bearing Housing from flexion.

I have had my own PTP Solid Nine used a comparison to the friends undertaken works, with the outcome being assessed that  a standard Lenco with selected methods adopted, can sound almost identical to a PTP, possibly only the Plinth Materials > Tonearm > Cart in use being the main influences on the differences detected.

Shortly before the Covid Lockdowns, I would have suggested it is impossible from  my experiences to pick an absolute preferred TT, as their were too many variables in the demonstrations, i.e, Plinth Materials, Tonearm, Cart's and TT Mounting Methods.

This changed just prior to the Lock Down Period, the friend with the GL75's had received a Extended Length SPH Bearing, it was supplied as a Special Version, as my friend had encouraged the Bearing producer to have a Spindle made that was a Composite design, the Spindle has Metal within the housing and a Ebony Wood is the attached Part of the Spindle that is visible above the Bearing Housing.

I also know the Thrust Pad was changed and the Lubrication in use was said to be working as Hydrodynamic. Being very familiar with this persons work and different concepts, as well as having my own PTP with the PTP bearing used as a comparison to their earlier work undertaken, I was not expecting too much of a margin of change.

The version of SPH Bearing in use attached to a GL75 with a Speed Controller, was the most indelible memory I have from any experience in recent years, it was a very gathered and exact presentation, that was the most attractive of many recollections and was being perceived as being noticeably improved over prior experiences.

            

@pindac Thanks for an enjoyable read. I have three refurbished 401s—two early and one later model units. One in 50mm Pennsylvania slate, one in 5x13 layer Baltic birch ply with a solid walnut top, and the other as a working skeletal project. I too have been impressed by the large improvement in sound quality when using the SPH bearing. 

The SPH Bearing is a success for two reasons, one being simple Geometry, when the extended length option is chosen the spindle will be less off axis when it rotates due the extended Spindle Length.

The other reason is that the common designed Vertical Plain Thrust Bearing from a vintage era, does not have Hydrodynamic lubrication as part of the design, a Sintered Bronze Bush is usually the part selected as the Sacrificial Material within the bearing housing. I have not seen evidence that a Sintered Bronze Bush is able to release a impregnated lubrication at the heat a Spindle Rotation can produce, and the Bearing Housing is unlikely to have a design that has a Hydrodynamic Lubrication.

The outcome is that an original design for a vintage bearing will end up with Metal to Metal contact between the Bushing and Spindle, and the Steel Ball and Spindle Base will most likely be in contact with each other as well.

This will mean noise is produced and it will be quite easily detected with a Stethoscope, which I have been shown on a few occasions where various stages of bearing work is being carried out.

SPH is using Thermoplastic Bushes and Thrust Pads, with a Non Metal Ball, so there is no Metal to Metal contact, this is a great improvement and the Stethoscope will show the quieter condition, by creating a Hydrodynamic Lubrication, the overall environment within the Bearing Housing is further improved.

A Vintage Bearing Assembly with Metal Parts that are without excessive wear to the used parts and a Modern design where non metal parts are selected in place of the Metal, if both set up to have Hydrodynamic Lubrication should both be as quiet as each other, as the Oil is supporting the Parts and separating the parts from coming into contact.

This leaves three other factors at play for the impression the SPH Bearing has made, the Geometry due to the extended Spindle Length, the Composite Spindle removing a Metal to Metal contact between Platter and Spindle, and the other being the use of a non Thermoplastic Thrust Pad, which will have removed the material that has elasticity and be subjected to the effects of Vertical Compliance.

The question is as a subjective analysis, can these three factors really be the influences that made the use of the SPH Bearing stand out as improved over the other versions.

I have a bespoke produced Tonearm, that is a modern thought process applied to a Vintage Model, that has been rebuilt in the concealed areas with Modern materials used for the design and a very careful approach to the R&D carried out to select the machining tolerances for the new materials.

I have followed this Tonearm as it has evolved in stages of design, and have been invited to receive demonstrations of the work as it has evolved. I know of one occasion when a material with an improved property, was used in place of an earlier selected material, the Tonearm moved forward in a night and day noticeable improvement, so the method used for the assembly within the Bearing Housing ’could’ be a feasible explanation.