Empirical Evidence?...the gap between subjective and objective


As a curious music guy without science background, I stand in awe and gratitude for audio's accomplishments in the last half-century.  From Julian Hirsch's "Stereo Review" to the here and now, Julian's measurements calling the shots vs "trust your ears."  I solidly embrace both camps.  Hard science gets us close, then the loosening of emotions in guiding us home.

Some years ago, I stood on a lower Manhattan Street corner, absorbing the cacophony.  Surrounded by moving objects, sirens, vendors, helicopters, humanity...how can 2 channel replicate this?  A distant friend with the pockets to chase high-end surround, smiles.   More importantly, how could that experience be measured and compared with any degree of accuracy?  "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."  Thoughts? 

More Peace, Pin

pinthrift

He said that only for the pleasure to call some in "bad faith" perhaps and stirring an already troubled pot...

This is a question of acoustic concepts and then of ignorance not of "bad faith" or belief...

It takes few thinking minutes and a simple science aricles search to understand that WE CANNOT distinguish from a background something or an information for which we have not concept......We will automatically dismiss this information as meaningless or like an unperceived background or the 2 at the same times mostly ... Most perception is a learning process of recognition, all the rest is put under the rug as non existing phenomena...

It is true also in acoustic where the background is noise and the information is hidden in it......Why do blind people perceive all forms of houses and tress, and cars around them cycling blind without errors and not you? It is because you never learned to access this information, it is a noise for you and me...

How can you ask for example to someone to detail his experience of "listener envelopment/source width" or LEV/ASW ratio if he never experiment it CONSCIOUSLY ? Someone here very knowledgeable accuse my description to be an "illusion", not knowing that there is no pure objectivity in acoustic separated from a perceiving subjectivity... "Illusion" in music /sound is sometimes our REALITY it is called "meaning"......

It is a question of knowledge and experience in learning experiments not of belief..

 

Than accusing others of "bad faith" only mirror the accuser himself...For sure there is times to times bad faith but it is impossible to accuse an entire group which think and experiment otherwise... Ignorance and lack of acoustics experiments exlain everything in acoustic experience, bad faith justify the person speaking and accusing perhaps, and explain nothing... It is " ideological" babble at best,,,

By the way it is not a " table game" but a CORRELATION optimization process between subjective and objective factors...

Audio is not a gang stake game or a marchandise marketing game first... It is first and last acoustic knowledge and experiments ... Period....

 

We all wanted a great musical experience with an optimal sound experience at the least cost...

This has nothing to do with miraculously superior piece of gear either, even if they exist for sure...

It is related to mechanical, electrical and acoustical and psycho-acoustical controls in the system/house/room...

 

In a word the best measured numbers for a piece of gear will not replace a good room and a good room wil not make a badly designed piece of gear a better one...

In physical acoustic all empirical measures and objective disposition SERVE psycho-acoustical experience and research...And all discoveries about the hearing process and his subjective aspects help us to design improved objective acoustical environment...

The audio system itself is a tool not the only cause factor nor the goal of the acoustic experience...

Then listening the gear without any objective measures nor any objective acoustic disposition around it is ignorance...

But measuring pieces of gear without listening them in the rightful acoustic environment to assess the relation with the measuring process is without much value and is another kind of ignorance, a different hobby at best...

 

This is a point that I and others have brought up before in similar threads. I truly believe that a lot of objectivists who argue here can hear the differences that others do and simply dismiss them as insignificant. https://eldfall-chronicles.com/

The underlying reasons are not important. What is, is that they are dealing in bad faith.

Hey I really like playing table games because they are great example of Empirical Evidence as a whole when each game progresses.

 

He told me that he did, in fact, hear clear differences in power amplifiers, but that he did not value the differences as significant in the context of an audio system.

At the time he was the best source of information about audio gear but he did his listeners a disservice if he heard differences but suggested they were not significant. It's better to let the listener decide if they are significant. 

There is three level of quality design/price ratio if i symplify for the sake of my arguments...Low, mid and high end S.Q./price ratio....

Most of the times if we stay on one level for comparison , differences between two amplifiers will exist but will not be so significant and big as compared to what will give money placed in  mechanical, electrical and acoustical embeddings controls...

Then it will be a disservice to audio consumers to encourage them to upgrade instead of adressing the way they install an amplifier in their system/room/house...

It is there that the difference in REAL improvement will be huge... Not just only a flavor taste  difference about this 10,000 bucks amplifier and this 15,000 bucks one...

Then before accusing him of misleading people perhaps we must think twice...

Informing people sometimes is saying to them what they dont want to hear: buying costly piece of gear and listening to them is not enough to create an audiophile experience even if the difference between a 10,000 bucks amplifier and a 25,000 one can exist indeed...

Upgrade sometimes even from mid  to high end cannot replace acoustic for example...

Audiophile experience is less a question about money than about knowledge...

 

At the time he was the best source of information about audio gear but he did his listeners a disservice if he heard differences but suggested they were not significant. It’s better to let the listener decide if they are significant.

 

 

 

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Audio was a quite different pursuit in the 1960s and 1970s.

Maybe 1950- to the late 1950s but by the 60s, people were pursuing hi-fidelity to play their new stereo records. It's been the same ever since, buy the gear that sounds best.