objective vs. subjective rabbit hole


There are many on this site who advocate, reasonably enough, for pleasing one’s own taste, while there are others who emphasize various aspects of judgment that aspire to be "objective." This dialectic plays out in many ways, but perhaps the most obvious is the difference between appeals to subjective preference, which usually stress the importance of listening, vs. those who insist on measurements, by means of which a supposedly "objective" standard could, at least in principle, serve as arbiter between subjective opinions.

It seems to me, after several years of lurking on and contributing to this forum, that this is an essential crux. Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?

Let me explain why this seems to me a crux here. Subjective preferences are, finally, incontestable. If I prefer blue, and you prefer green, no one can say either of us is "right." This attitude is generous, humane, democratic—and pointless in the context of the evaluation of purchase alternatives. I can’t have a pain in your tooth, and I can’t hear music the way you do (nor, probably, do I share your taste). Since this forum exists, I presume, as a source of advice from knowledgable and experienced "audiophiles" that less "sophisticated" participants can supposedly benefit from, there must be some kind of "objective" (or at least intersubjective) standard to which informed opinions aspire. But what could possibly serve better as such an "objective standard" than measurements—which, and for good reasons, are widely derided as beside the point by the majority of contributors to this forum?

To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?

128x128snilf

Some like deludedaudiophile use the concept "accurate" and "noise" in a confused way

I am thinking one of us knows those terms much better and used them daily. I don’t think it is you. You appear to redefine terms as you see fit.

 

The method by which scientist can study the way introduction of noise can help non linear detection system is called: stochastic resonance method...

HOW non linear detection ears/brain structured system can use noise in a way an ordinary electrical detection instrument could not?


I had to Google about 10 minutes to form an appropriate response as there were some items I was unsure of.

Do you know a characteristic of a system where stochastic resonance will work? It must be bistable. Your leap of faith in another thread wrt non-linearity in hearing and DAC operation, missed that the researchers in the papers you linked highlighted the non-linearities in the physical nature of the cochlear. It would appear the bistable element in hearing would be neurons that relates to stochastic resonance. That would mean they have an element of quantization, making them digital in some fashion, not analog. Digital has fundamental non-linearity due to quantization too. Do you have anything that reveals limits of quantization of human hearing? If not, I have to assume it would relate to minimum hearing thresholds.

It appears that digital audio has been using this principle as well since its inception with dithering.

Which brings me back to how I should have started this thread and why I do not read your posts. Is there any point you are trying to make, because so far, you have not made one.

To give credit, you are attempting to relate experience to scientific principles even if, in my opinion, your attempts appear misguided.  Far too many posts come across as a call to magic.

 

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I'm reminded of the rich man & Lazarus story

Lazarus, the beggar died and went to Paradise. Rich man ends up in Hades and crying out to Abraham

‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

OTOH, you have hundreds of people who are  ear witnesses, yet you want a machine, built by a man to tell you the final "truth"? IOW you want the truth but only on YOUR terms. Nah. truth is truth, no matter who believes it. Truth does not line up to man's whims. Man needs to align with truth.

One of the biggest problem with the progressive mindset is that it has little or no understanding of human nature. The ramifications of that are tremendous

I had to Google about 10 minutes to form an appropriate response as there were some items I was unsure of.

I am glad to be less "deluded" than the crowd...if you must think for answering me... 😊

Which brings me back to how I should have started this thread and why I do not read your posts. Is there any point you are trying to make, because so far, you have not made one.

To give credit, you are attempting to relate experience to scientific principles even if, in my opinion, your attempts appear misguided. Far too many posts come across as a call to magic.

Thanks for your appreciation ...
But there is a paradox here: you answered some other posters which are easy to contradict or correct but for me you say "you dont have to read my post" ? and yet  i make you work net search to understand what i spoke about? 😁😊

Anyway.... My point is simple .... Evaluation of gear by some selected sets of measures make sense ONLY in some hearing theory context...
I put an article on my post who contrast the big difference between passive linear mesuring tools and active non linear tools like the hearing system...

Now for your argument here about bi-stability....

Do you know a characteristic of a system where stochastic resonance will work? It must be bistable. Your leap of faith in another thread wrt non-linearity in hearing and DAC operation, missed that the researchers in the papers you linked highlighted the non-linearities in the physical nature of the cochlear. It would appear the bistable element in hearing would be neurons that relates to stochastic resonance. That would mean they have an element of quantization, making them digital in some fashion, not analog. Digital has fundamental non-linearity due to quantization too. Do you have anything that reveals limits of quantization of human hearing? If not, I have to assume it would relate to minimum hearing thresholds.

The non linear nature of the hearing ability are not only in the physical structure of the cochlea but in the brain itself...Neurons are not the ultimate processing levels units at all.... Microtubules are...
And decisions dont imply necessarily only bi-stable structure but also resonant multi stable living rythmic multi processing parallel structures...
Rythm and resonance with and between multi stable parallel processing units are more fundamental than the old model of binary linear digital processing of neurons gates a bi-stable processing which anyway emerge from them at one level not the opposite ...

First read Penrose-Hameroff and also this guy Anirban Bandyopadhyay :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYX9c10ECAE

He want to create an artificial brain with time crystals technology...With "music" or hierarchical rythmic structures in parallel processing not bi-stable digital structure...

https://www.routledge.com/Nanobrain-The-Making-of-an-Artificial-Brain-from-a-Time-Crystal/Bandyopadhyay/p/book/9781439875490

 

 

 

And meditate this news:

https://news.mit.edu/2022/neurons-are-fickle-electric-fields-are-more-reliable-information-0401

«In a sense, once established, the (electrical) field imposes itself on the neurons like the conductor of an orchestra in which each neuron is a single musician, says Dimitris Pinotsis»

 

 

 

Stochastic resonance requires bi-stable (or multi-stable), essentially it requires an analog to quantization, pun intended.