Thiel Owners

" Blue Printed "

As a DIYer I can tell you that it is impossible for me to  "blue print " my crossover boards , but I can and have been able to " balance " them .  To truly blue print a board one must have a box full of each component in order to find  components that are the exact values as the schematics ,  this is what Jim did when he personally checked, measured and approved review samples .

But " balanced " is something that I believe that every Thiel speaker from Lexington is , that is that  a 2 ohm resistor might measure 2.1 ohms so finding  another one for the other board you'll be balanced same goes for a capacitors values , as long as all the values are within  a tolerance set by Thiels quality control .  

I'm bring this up because after removing the resistors and capacitors I measured them and discovered resistors that were more than 5% tolerance and electrolytic capacitors that up to 30% out of tolerance ! But since My speakers came from  Tennessee and had been put together or repaired there I won't say that this is typical but I was surprised to have measured such differences in the resistors that are used in all Thiel speakers and very disappointed in the electrolytic caps that I took out and then have the same issue with the new replacements !   I purchased a different manufacturer and received caps that were closer to being within tolerance at least they were the same values , So while none of the new components were exact schematic values they were almost exact match pairs thus balanced L & R crossovers .

DIYing is not something that is easy but in my case it turned out to be extremely rewarding  because now with upgraded components I know these sound better than stock as well as fixing the FrankenThiel lack of quality crossovers that " New Thiel Audio " sold me .         

HELP! I need advise. I'm nervous. One of the tweeters went out on my 26 year old CS3.6s (SN# 4789,4790 produced 5/22/96). Amazingly, this is the first problem with these. This is Rob Gillum's response:

"Sounds like the lead wires on the tweeter moving system have failed. They will need to be rebuilt as a soft dome. It will require you to send both tweeters for rebuilding and matching. The tweeter rebuilds are $200 each, plus shipping. As well as the tweeter rebuilding the waveguide or tweeter protector has to be removed for clearance to the new soft dome." 

I trust Rob but I'm concerned. Following this thread since the beginning, I know how the the crossover and drivers are meticulously tuned. Does anyone here have experience with this tweeter rebuild?

@vair68robert - what a mess. It sounds like Nashville Thiel may not have had final product testing, because your value drifts would have failed your finished speakers.

We took quality assurance very seriously. There are many approaches - our methods were always changing - with lots of thought and care. The 1980s saw the advent of ISO-9000 where manufacturers processes were certified rather than their final testing. We bought from suppliers with essentially the approaches that became codified in ISO9001. In that environment, incoming testing is not necessary. Every part can be assumed to be correct. The flip side is that if any single part flunks at any point in process, then the entire batch is quarantined, the problem is investigated, solved and re-documented. We co-developed our implementation with Vifa (and their group of co-producers) to good success.

Please permit me a story, an important, meaningful story that helped form Thiel Audio's identity. Consider the CS3 woofer. It was our first real foray into partnered product development. That woofer was a big leap ahead, especially with the copper shorting rings and field-focusing top plate geometry. It also pushed the envelope of what a woofer was expected to do: perform well and consistently to 10kHz. That long, even high-end roll-off depended on tight control of many factors including viscosity of the bobbin / cone glueline. We spent more than two years working on that woofer with Vifa. Perhaps because there had been so many iterations (?10+?), and perhaps because we had developed so much mutual respect, perhaps a dash of time / annual cycle pressure . . . the first production run of woofers had an anomaly that missed all of us. Its upper range, perhaps 4-8kHz had too much energy. 'Normally' a woofer's response in that range is irrelevant; but with Thiel's first order rollout, it mattered. Good lessons were learned that paid strong dividends over the following decades.

The root cause turned out to be a change of adhesive caused by the Danish government outlawing epoxies for health concerns. The replacement 'equivalent' glue acted differently at operating temperature than the prior well-understood epoxy. The new glue eventually also failed in the field for our first (possibly only) recall. That 'problem' clarified our MO for customer service. We replaced every one of the woofers at no charge and our dealers magnanimously swapped them out at no charge to us! To make lemonade from the lemons, we provided a record (yes, vinyl) to each customer as consolation for their trouble. The record was Michael Hedges 'Aerial Boundaries', which was both musically and technically masterful. That situation became legendary and performative - defining our image both internally and in the marketplace. Kathy Gornik gets much of that credit. 

When I first heard of your wildly out of spec components, I was dumbfounded. As the particulars came to light it made some sense. New Thiel was not the same company with the same values of product integrity and customer satisfaction. I wonder how many more 2.7s are out there from New Thiel.

Thank You Tom

There is no need to defend Thiel , I purchased these speakers based on the extremely positive reviews and the overwhelming enthusiastic support from individual owners .  

I can say that when New Thiel was bankrupt and selling off stock that they put 9 CS2.7 pairs for sale on e-Bay , along with 6 or 9 CS1.7's  and the one I wish I could have afforded a CS3.7 that I was told that they had it as a museum piece . Based on my experience I tend to believe that the speakers sold on e-Bay were probably thrown together from parts laying around by an non-technician since one of the resistors was the totally wrong value.  I got a bargain , the only way I could have afforded a new pair of Thiel speakers ( even with all the issues I discovered )  Luckily I was able to correct and still at the same time upgrade for a lot less than even the price used speakers at that time but unfortunately there are a few pairs out there that might not live up to Thiel standards .

Rob,

When you are done your upgrades you will have one of the best psir of CS 2.7 out there. 

You and Tom have been very helpful and motivasted me to tear apart my CS 2.7 and push their true potential.