objective vs. subjective rabbit hole


There are many on this site who advocate, reasonably enough, for pleasing one’s own taste, while there are others who emphasize various aspects of judgment that aspire to be "objective." This dialectic plays out in many ways, but perhaps the most obvious is the difference between appeals to subjective preference, which usually stress the importance of listening, vs. those who insist on measurements, by means of which a supposedly "objective" standard could, at least in principle, serve as arbiter between subjective opinions.

It seems to me, after several years of lurking on and contributing to this forum, that this is an essential crux. Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?

Let me explain why this seems to me a crux here. Subjective preferences are, finally, incontestable. If I prefer blue, and you prefer green, no one can say either of us is "right." This attitude is generous, humane, democratic—and pointless in the context of the evaluation of purchase alternatives. I can’t have a pain in your tooth, and I can’t hear music the way you do (nor, probably, do I share your taste). Since this forum exists, I presume, as a source of advice from knowledgable and experienced "audiophiles" that less "sophisticated" participants can supposedly benefit from, there must be some kind of "objective" (or at least intersubjective) standard to which informed opinions aspire. But what could possibly serve better as such an "objective standard" than measurements—which, and for good reasons, are widely derided as beside the point by the majority of contributors to this forum?

To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?

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IMHE whenever people of sound mind are presented with a truly excellent system they will all agree that it is excellent. The reference is live music. Can a system make you believe with your eyes shut that you are in front of a live band given a good recording? If it can not then you might have work to do and money to spend. The best systems can do this. Play Bela Fleck's My Bluegrass Heart. Are the musicians standing in front of you in real size? Bela is center right, the violinist is center left, bass is dead center and there is a guitarist far left and far right, standing right there. Close your eyes and you can see them. The violin is smooth as silk. Every string on Bela's banjo is present and accounted for. 

This does not take fancy wires or power conditioners or fancy stands for speakers or gunk to put on your connections. All it takes is good equipment mated correctly with proper management of acoustics and equalization. 

I would argue it takes only average equipment in a good room. Before I had all my new equipment in my listening room, I had our old home theatre system in there. Not a cheap system but not what many here would call audiophile. Everything worked. Imaging was perfect. Sound was "balanced". When the main system went in the biggest difference was clarity at higher volumes and better bass from the new subs. At low-mid volumes they were surprisingly similar.

All my audio journey confirm to me that you are right...

But a good room is an acoustically minimally if not optimally controlled room...

Most untouched living room are not "good room", it is why people unable to control their subjective impression with objective acoustic installation think to upgrade by unsatisfaction even if they will not say it openly...Acoustic impotency is not a good adviser....

And yes it takes only average very basic good gear to reach heaven because there is a minimal S.Q. threshold that can satisfy any music lover even if the system he own is not the best there is..

I would argue it takes only average equipment in a good room.

Prof—and yet again, mahgister, and mijostyn too: thanks so much for your insightful comments. Prof, I will look at your "thread"; this is just the sort of writing about audio I love to read: about the equipment, but grounded in an appreciation of the reproduction of the real sound of instruments. Your paragraph about the woody timbre of woodwinds, the brassy sheen of the brass, voices that sound like flesh and blood rather than electrons...that's what I seek, too, in listening, and also in reading on this forum.

FWIW, I also share your privileging of the subjective, if I may put it that way. It is "like something" to be an experiencing consciousness—like something to be a bat, but also like something to hear a string quartet or a beautiful soprano. It may well be that such a subjective experience is conditioned by neurons stimulated by physical phenomena, but as mahgister never tires of pointing out, psychoacoustics is where the subjective and the objective meet. In any case, you put your finger on the fallacy of supposing that only objective measurements are intersubjectively communicable. I completely agree that, even if my reaction to, say, a given speaker is due to its bump at 1 kHz, or whatever, I don't experience that pleasurable sensation as a 1 kHz bump—and what matters, of course, is how the physical phenomenon is perceived, not how it may be described in terms of physics. One certainly can, as you so eloquently show, persuade others without leaving the shared realm of the subjective.

Thanks for the treat of reading all this.