Honest Experience on Effects of Subwoofer Please


I have read countless of threads on people’s experiences with subwoofers but am still confused. Although I don’t have any experience with high quality music subwoofers, I have been using a decent sub in my audio system for the past 18 years or so. The sub went in and out of the systems and various rooms throughout the years as I was not convinced if the sub was contributing anything to the system. At times I felt I could hear an improvement and at other times I thought the sub wasn’t doing anything. If I bump up the volume and crossover frequency on the sub to hear a larger impact, it’s overly done.

I am aware that a proper set up and/or quality of subwoofer is crucial to ensure a successful implementation of the sub(s) in a system. Let’s just assume that everything is done properly.

To cut to the chase, do people hear a small or appreciable difference with subwoofers, or it’s a big night and day difference? I know everyone’s expectations are different but I’m reading different opinions and experiences on this forum. For the first time in 15 years, I am considering a sub upgrade and have been in communication with the sub maker and dealer. I just wanted to get a clearer picture on the situation.

So, coming back to the question, just two questions;

1. Do people hear a small or appreciable difference with subwoofers, or it’s a big night and day difference?

2 Do subwoofers just fill up the missing deep bass below say 40Hz or 35Hz where the main speakers won’t reproduce, or they will also augment the mid bass and upper bass by producing a punchier sound with better kick, heft and dynamics? The drums or kick drums are usually in the region of the midbass and upper bass, not low bass.

Posts like the one below taken from another thread make me confused.

 

ryder

@mijostyn --

Well put. 

@lonemountain --

Ad 1). Don't see how that applies here. If subs are successfully implemented I'd only want them to reflect the variation in source material. It's about what becomes your "axis mundi" for setting the reference gain, and the rest really falls into place from here in my experience. 

Ad 2). Sure, below the Schroeder frequency the resonating nature of sound waves becomes an important factor with regard to placement and how to avoid the most severe nulls and peaks. It can be a balancing act using both digital bass management and a more pure acoustical approach of placement and sub numbers. In my dual sub setup with a higher cross-over between the subs and mains, symmetry of placement is paramount, and corner loading, while not always ideal acoustically, lends itself naturally both with regard to proximity and symmetry to the mains, while also taking advantage of boundary gain. I could successfully add two more subs for an even smoother acoustical response, but that's for future plans to come.

Ad 3).

I'm guessing this is the potential rub many are confronted with here; leaving the mains running full-range and then trying to blend in subs (slightly overlapping or not) is really dealing with two separate systems - with all that entails. 

I can understand some of the reasoning behind why many wouldn't want to employ a high-pass filter digitally over their passively configured main speakers, hereby adding another filter layer - albeit a sonically more transparent one compared to passive filters, to my ears - to an existing passive one, which is where I would suggest a more radical approach; without a HP running the mains full-range can integrate quite well with subs (I've used such a configuration years back), but my current approach high-passing the mains is done fully actively with a digital XO sans any passive cross-over, and as such is really dealt with as a 3-way system with the subs in close proximity to the mains. Every cross-over section, especially where horns are used, involves dealing with delay elaborately and eventually fine-tuned by ear, so the high-passing part of the mid-woofers is no different an aspect than high-passing the compression driver above them - or the subs for that matter just below the knee (i.e.: tune) to protect the drivers due to unloading. This is the radical nature I'm referring to above, because it's done considering the system incl. the (sub-)bass section as a whole.   

Implemented as such remember the mid-woofers will be relieved of LF which, certainly when HP'ed above 70-80Hz, equates into a cleaner presentation and bigger headroom - up to 10dB's, even. That's significant and audible for the better when carefully implemented. 

Ad 4). Why not take the next step and make it multiple larger subs?

Ad 5). I rarely encounter high-pass filters between subs and mains higher than ~125Hz. In my own setup the high-pass is set just below 85Hz, which is dictated by the upper end response of my tapped horns. I try to avoid extensive EQ'ing, but I guess I could stretch that HP a bit more towards 100Hz with some minor corrections.  

Ad 6). It's delay settings galore on my Xilica DSP. 

Ad 7). Using the ears is always the last measure here. 

Ad 8). You still hear the half and quarter waves of a 20Hz tone in moderately sized listening room, albeit with lesser clarity vs. the full wavelength due to room interaction. 20-25Hz in not in vain by any measure in my moderately sized listening space.  

AKG_C wrote, "You see, it’s very difficult and expensive to build a good subwoofer. One reason is that a sub has to move a tremendous amount of air, which places big demands on the driver (or drivers). Moving lots of air requires a lot of power and that means an amp with a huge power supply, which can cost huge money."

I have not found that to be the case with my Bill Fitzmaurice designed HT Tuba folded corner horn subs.  With a sensitivity of 104 or 105 db/w/m depending on the 15 inch driver used a modest amplifier can produce all the clean, tight  bass the music requires.  The only downside is the size of eighteen cubic ft. each. 

@kingharold , now imagine 8 of those in one room.

Since I build my own subwoofers in a rather extravagant shop I have the capability to do things others can not. Still, there are some excellent subwoofer kits available and many SOTA drivers available. These are not that difficult to build and can save you piles of money.

This really is not that complicated. A sub enclosure has to be extremely stiff, heavy and non resonant. With DSP and room control porting has become a thing of the past. You limit your low end extension that way. The only other spec that matters is the volume of the enclosure but even if you are off a little, a powerful amp and DSP have you covered. With an outboard crossover you can use passive subs and separate amps. I personally do not like amps in speakers. You can easily do a 4 woofer system for the price of two commercial powered subs if not less. Making a subwoofer look good is the hard part. I tell people to cover them with equipment carpet if they do not have finish facilities. 

With a symmetrical sub array and accurate phase and time alignment you shoot yourself in the foot not taking the crossover up to at least 100 Hz. I ran 125 Hz with my old speakers. With the subs digitally matched you would never know they were there until you turned the volume up too high. A good test is, you should be able to switch the woofers in an out and not hear any difference on a Peter, Paul and Mary album played at moderate volume 80-85 dB.  Anything with a bass drum will immediately announce the subwoofers.  Paradoxically if you use just a low pass  filter at 40 Hz there won't be any difference either but the end results are night and day. 

I'm listening to Shostakovich's 10th at this moment at only 73 dB and the bass drum is rolling off me like an ocean wave even at this low volume.  

["mijostyn: Since I build my own subwoofers in a rather extravagant shop I have the capability to do things others can not."]

Rather extravagant?! I'm guilty of tool envy and you have some great choices. It's your space-iousness! Dust collection, lighting, running water, and what looks to be warm and cosy in the winter? Dude, you got it going on!

You take care of the dust from those exotic woods. Enjoy.