Msb dacs why not alot of postings

@dannad

"Some people like NOS DACs, most do not. I would go on a limb and say no one could reliability tell you whether a DAC was R2R or DS without being told."

I am no sure whether r2r vs d-s aren't discernible. The whole idea is, if implemented properly, the technology should actually be transparent to the end user. The dacs should ideally sound the same. But technically or psychoacoustically, they do not. Some devices to sound fatiguing over the long term, this is essentially what all these discussions boil down to. But that's a complex issue. After a hard day of work, I could be fatigued easily listening to music vs a nice pleasant day, in the same system with the same tracks.

NOS vs OS may be far easier to discern. R2R does not have to be NOS, BTW. Most (all?) Schiit dacs are OS r2r dacs. All NOS dacs will attenuate the high frequency by ~3db due to the nature of signal processing. Sinc(x)/x function. By reading many topics over years in this space, I realized even some pro reviewers do not know this. This attenuation doesn't mean treble will sound bad. But treble is definitely rolled off if the DAC is NOS. And you can counter that if you choose to, by using software to oversample prior to sending the signal to the NOS dac. Then the attenuation happens beyond the limit of human hearing. Most of us probably do not have the capability to hear up to 20KHz, last I checked I could discern up to 17KHz. So if the r2r dacs starts to attenuate at 15KHz, this will not be very noticeable as most of our music rarely contains components within the extremities of the bandwidth anyway.

That's also something everyone should test, there are plenty of web based or youtube based signal generators to test your hearing (and your system).

Further reading: https://www.dsprelated.com/showarticle/1191.php

"FPGA is not a type of DAC. It is a method of implementating digital logic and algorithms."

I know that. I meant the class of dacs that use FPGA chips could be called FPGA dacs. PS Audio, Chord Dave etc. The chips can be modified by software. Hence PS Audio dacs are modifiable by software updates.

As a (amateur) musician i love my MSB dac. It's the dac that tells the story of music to me. Many other DA converters I have listened to are reproducing notes in a technical way. If I study my teacher sometimes tells me: you're playing vertical notes instead of musical sentences. 

I have learned using a good cable with a low impedance is key as the output impedance from the MSB is rather low. Matching with the "wrong" cable does affect the result. But i assume that matching gear and it's connections isn't an unknown here. Also important is to make sure you have the connections right. A MSB dac is fully balanced and when connected to a single ended design trough it's balanced output...it will perform mediocre. 

Warranty and product support from this company is extraordinary... and that also has it's price. If you just bluntly say it's expensive and promote another brand...it gives true credit to MSB for making exeptional gear. 

Enjoy the music. 

 

Please see the email below (in quotes) I received from MSB dated May 12,2022. The email says the MSB Director is a DAC upgrade. See below:

"We have been working towards this point for a few years now and are wildly excited to share the results with you. Introducing, The Digital Director. I want to take a moment to try my best at explaining what this product is and how it works. As it is a new product category, we are still figuring out the right words.

To start, this is a DAC Upgrade. This works with all existing Discrete, Premier, Reference, and Select DACs. Any version of the digital director works with any version of our DACs. It is an additional product chassis that marries with the DAC to do extraordinary things. New firmware will be required for the DAC. Current input modules are removed from the DAC and installed into the Digital Director. With the Pro ISL and Optical control link providing two way communication will allow the DAC display and controls to operate the Digital Director as a seamless experience. This will not work as an independent product. The Reference and Select level Digital Directors have integrated linear power supplies, whereas the Premier Digital Director has an integrated switching power supply.

The creation of this product stems from the ever diversifying market of digital sources. Servers, computers, and renderers etc. We set out to find a way to bring all bit perfect sources onto an equal footing. This required more power, processing, and perfect isolation. Mission accomplished. Having this as an external product was key for isolation. We are doing everything possible to further quite down the DAC chassis where the conversion process is most vulnerable to noise.

Lastly, we have offloaded the digital processing from the DAC into the Digital Director. Using new high-performance DSPs along with all-new digital filters our DACs have taken a huge step forward. I was blown away hearing the soundstage snap into even sharper focus! I love how our favorite recordings continue to surprise us with new details and experiences. It seems our digital journey is not yet complete and we are excited to discover what’s next".

Additional MSB Director production information is:

"Note: Production begins this year, but we ask for patience with new orders as we navigate severe chip shortages and difficult supply lines. Once the new firmware is installed, The Digital Director is compatible with all existing Discrete, Premier, Reference, and Select DACs. All new Digital Directors are manufactured according to our most recent designs and production standards and are not guaranteed to be a perfect finish match to existing systems. That being said, they’ll have stacking compatibility and will follow the correct sizing and shape. All new orders placed between May 2022 and the shipping release of the Digital Directors will be an exact match. Current and new DAC orders will ship when ready and the Digital Director will be sent at a later date when production schedules allow".

My Comments: I know MSB Technology is about innovation, advanced design, state of the art products, etc. but the new MSB Director upgrade price is HIGHER than what I expected. I never thought my next MSB Premier DAC upgrade would cost this much and require a third box.

To be honest, it is frustrating that the next MSB DAC upgrade requires a $14,500 expenditure, another box, more cables, etc. In any case, I am not happy with MSB’s expensive upgrade path for my MSB Premier DAC and will ‘probably’ keep my Premier DAC since it sounds excellent and is paid for. Thanks.

 

 

Please see the response below the ==== I received from MSB Technology regarding the announcement of the MSB Director. His explanation makes perfect sense, was very helpful and I better understand MSB’s future product strategy. For example, "the Director was designed to be a brick wall against any of these noises and associated jitter. From the beginning of the company MSB has always considered and respected the customer’s investment and tried to bring the customer along with new technologies as much value as possible". 

For the time being, I am keeping my MBS Premier DAC. I listened to my system yesterday and it sound great to my ears.

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"The technology for the current DAC models are going on 7 years old. Lately we have been often asked when are coming out with a new DAC. Bu the core digital engine, the ladders and the clocks are still almost better than what is needed for audio at each price point. Therefore, our ability to do a major improvement pretty much lives in the front end of the DAC. Much more powerful processors were needed that didn’t exist when these DACs were designed. The original design retains the original processors but then adds new processors allowing bigger and better digital filters among other significant refinements. The other important goal is physical and electrical isolation from computer audio noise. All servers and plain computers deliver the exact same bit perfect file, so the musical data is identical. They sound different because of jitter and electrical noise (different from audible noise). This noise can come from your own network equipment and at much higher frequencies from cell towers, TV, and radio stations, etc., conducted along the ethernet cables. The Director was designed to be a brick wall against any of these noises and associated jitter. Early tests say that this has been achieved to a high degree. Also, the difference between connection methods, RCA, AES-XLR, USB, and direct ethernet streaming was designed to be as identical as possible. 

Historically, many if not most companies would understandably just come out with a new DAC when they have accomplished something significant. From the beginning of the company MSB has always considered and respected the customer’s investment and tried to bring the customer along with new technologies as much value as possible. In the two previous decades the platforms lasted 10 years always being able to upgrade to the next level models within the 10 years. Due to the intent of the design, this 3rd and current platform could go longer. 

MSB works on cost-plus so a new chassis, a new motherboard, new more expensive internal components, and 3 years of design and development have a significant cost. In the end we want to assure you this is not “audiophile pricing”. We believe it is a fair price for a significant improvement in performance from any existing source, also improving the best source one might already have. Importantly, you do you not need to sell your DAC. We believe it is much more frustrating to have to keep your DAC and know the "next model” DAC that was recently introduced is better. And…. your DAC is worth much less money on the used market. In this case your DAC retains its full value. And you are right, your DAC as it is, sounds amazing and you are satisfied with it compared to other DACs you may have considered at its price point and maybe far above. If, and when, you decide to upgrade to the Director, your investment is additive. We believe it is hard to find such value in the high-end audio hobby".

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If you have any comments or thoughts to the above, please post them. Thanks.

 

 

@vfs2018 What do you mean by low impedance cable, are you talking interconnects? Which brand have you found to be best?