Hi guys, here are my answers to each of your comments:
Stereo5, the dealer has delivered the speakers to my home in person. I have
asked him to help me set them up (paying him would not have been a
problem) but he was certainly not eager to do it. My impression is that he
really has no idea what to do.
Douger, is it worth while to buy both (i.e. the book and the DVD)? I would
assume one will get more from the book, right? (I am a physicist doing
research on vibrational spectroscopy, so I am quite familiar with the way the
waves interact.)
Duomike, your comment certainly makes sense. Many SS amps do not do the
1st watt right so they sound terrible when driving very efficient speakers. As I
have mentioned in my previous post, I do not think that Accuphase class A
amps fall into this category. However, if I am mistaken, than I will most likely
choose the Accuphase electronics over the UNOs. This week-end I will install
back the Focal Micro Bes and the REL. I will report the differences.
Bmwmcab, I have the current generation of Avantgarde UNO. They are called
G2 (generation 2).
Arthur, you are probably right that the speakers and not yet burned in.
Apparently, the guy has them in his shop for a year and a bit. However, I have
visited his shop twice in the last 6 months, and every time the speakers where
in different rooms, i.e. one speaker was on the ground floor while the other
one on the 1st floor. It was like he was using them as decorations....
Regarding the settings you have suggested, they do not work in my room.
Because my room is decently treated (I have tracks on the walls that allow me
to easily move my acoustic panels so there are not clapping hands echos at
the listening chair), I spent most of the time finding the position of the
speakers/sub and the sub settings that yield the best bass response. When
doing this I perform measurements and also listen to double bass jazz
walking lines (the goal is to have all notes of the double bass equally loud).
For crossover setting below 9 I hear a clear gap between the high and low
notes of the double bass. The current setting are 10 for the crossover and 5
for the subwoofer level.
Any other thoughts and suggestions are very welcome and much appreciated!
Paul |
Paul, thanks for the nice words, I'm hardly an expert, but I've lived with the
speakers (Duos) along time and have learned alot about them and
associated equipment through them. I do not think they are a speaker you
can get 'right' quickly due to how sensitive they are to the other equipment
in the chain. It took a long time for me to get them to sound fairly
integrated, low to high, and even then, i could hear some discontinuity. In
fact, although I had a highly regarded line stage and phono preamp, they
still didn't perform as well as they could. Although they sounded wonderful
in the midrange, I still wasn't getting the best bass from them and there was
still a lack of homogeneity until those components were recently changed.
Before that, I could get the bass to sound good but it then plainly sounded
'different' in kind than the horns (louder and slower) , and if I got them to
integrate smoothly, the bass seemed too feeble. I attribute this in part to
the inherent differences in the dynamic, self powered woofer and the
crossover-less midrange horn, as well as the associated equipment. And
that doesn't address placement or burn-in either. The only additional
thoughts I have, beyond what has already been suggested here are:
-email jim smith and see if he is willing to do a paid phone consult for a
reasonable fee (buying the book is fine, I don't own it, I gather it has a lot of
good advice on system set-up that is useful), but Jim really knows
Avantgarde (although he may have less familiarity with the current line) and
now makes his living doing set ups because he is really good at that. He
knows how to tune a system- it won't be the same as his spending time in
your room, but it may be worth a modest fee by phone, if he will do that;
-if the speaker uses the factory supplied jumper cable , replace it with a
better cable; it will make a big difference; that was the first change I made
once I got the speaker;
-get the dealer to loan you a high quality tube amp, just for comparison
sake; I know the Accuphase is highly regarded, but when you hear just how
dramatic component changes are over these speakers, it will show you
how revealing they are, and how very important synergies are. It sounds
crazy, but my wife- who is very much a tolerant non-enthusiast, spent an
hour with me a few months ago comparing footers on the power supply to
my phono stage- she could readily hear the differences and she is not a
'brainwashed' audiophile. The fact is, the speaker can be that revealing (or
intolerant) of everything in the chain, which is why I think they are often
criticized when heard at shows or dealers where they are not properly set
up. One last minute, but very important thought: I didn't realize how
important the noise floor in the system and ambient noise in and
surrounding the room was until I lived with these speakers. They are
capable of reproducing extreme nuances if the system is quiet enough and
the electronics revealing enough to let the information through. This means
even more work to get everything to be as quiet as possible. This may also
have something to do with gain issues among various components. You
then are not listening at very high volume to hear the full measure of the
music on a good recording, and when you get the volume to a 'natural
volume' for that recording, and the system energizing the room properly,
they can be startling; very alive and 'in the room' which is the real magic of
these speakers.
Get it wrong, and they are playing 'at you' and sound intolerable.
Good luck and let us know what happens. |
I'm glad they are coming around for you. You definitely
need to make sure your electronics are burned in before you
judge the speakers. AGs will point out all the changes your
electronics are going through. You may even find that you
will need to readjust the subwoofer settings after they are
burned in.
As for the crossover at 9, the Stereophile measurements
indicate this means your system needs a boost of about 6dB
beyond normal at 300Hz. This is probably due to your room
having a strong midrange null, which can be quite
significant in small rooms. Despite this however, I'd say
you would find a tube amp would require a more neutral
response from the speakers.
I generally listen in the 85dB range and I do that for hours
at a time and never get tired. Hopefully your system will
change so that you can do that too if you want. Live music
is often in this range, if not more, and I often listen to
recorded "live" shows.
I have tried toeing them in to cross in front of me and I do
like that presentation, but have since realized that I can
get a very similar effect by toeing them out the same
amount, and have it look better IMO. It depends which amp
I'm using, but in general they point at my shoulders. I've
never liked them pointing straight at me. I'm not sure why
AG suggests that because it hasn't worked for any AG owner
I've talked to.
And finally I want to say, even though we've already said it
a few times, that Whart's last couple paragraphs are
absolutely accurate, no matter how much you love Accuphase.
My driver integration is magnificent and seamless
top to bottom. It took a while to get it all worked out,
and getting the right set of electronics, but now I rarely
hear conventional speakers have coherence as good as my Unos
(I owned Focal Electras before). AGs are absolutely capable
of being stunning performers in every regard.
Arthur |
I am happy to report that I have decided to keep the UNOs. The MicroBes
and the REL are up for sell already.
However, a lot has happened since my last post. Using the settings listed in
the opening post (9 for crossover and 5.5 for sub level) I have started to
just listen to music. The plan was to listen as many CDs as possible.
However, I have quickly realized that the system was sounding
good/decent only with audiophile recordings. Most other discs sounded
very thing and fatigue (bass while strong and good at times was missing in
most songs). After hearing this, I have installed back my MicroBe - REL
combo, only to hear how boxy they sound. (Though compare to the UNOs,
the MicroBe - REL combo had a much more balanced sound overall). The
situation was desperate to say the list.
Luckily, I have remember Arthur's advice about the crossover and
subwoofer volume settings, and I have started playing with them again. The
current settings are 4 for the crossover and just below 5 for the subwoofer.
The sound is very similar to what I remember hearing a few year back when
I have listen to the UNO - Accuphase combo I have told you about. That is,
very quick, dynamic and detailed sound with full midrange and not at all
fatigue.
(Somehow after reading the Avantgarde manual, I got the idea that I should
start with a high value for the crossover setting and gradually move down.
Thus, I have started with the maximum value, i.e.11. Unfortunately,
because, as reported, for settings below 9 there was a clear difference in
loudness between the high and low double bass strings - which I could not
correct by adjusting the subwoofer level - I have never used settings below
6 for the crossover. Thanks a lot Arthur for pointing out this crucial detail.)
Regarding your suggestions to try a tube amp, I certainly have nothing
against it. I'll keep the Accuphase for now and let the system settle in, but I
will ask the dealer who a few years back has demoed for me the Accuphase
- UNO combo to lend me some tube amps (he carries 47 Labs, Audio Note,
Manley and a few others). If the tubes sound that much better than my
Accuphase pre-power rig then I'll go with tubes. My only requirement,
beside good sound, is a balanced knob which I often used while working at
my desk (the desk is not situated between the speakers).
Arthur, regarding listening above 80 dB, my ears are more sensitive to
prolong listen session because of my drumming. It has nothing to do with
an unbalanced sound spectrum. I have also asked my wife, who is rather
sensitive to such anomalies, to come and listen to the UNOs and she had
absolutely no complains.
Finally, Whart and Arthur, I would like to thank you again for your very
helpful replies. Most likely I would have returned the UNOs if not for you
very helpful advices about toe in and crossover settings.
Best wishes,
Paul |
Hi Paul,
What fine speakers you have!! I scanned this thread and did not see mention of Jim Smith's wise advice on setting the crossover and woofer level. I apologize ahead of time if I missed such mention and am repeating something already mentioned.
I owned Duos for a number of years and agree with other posters that Jim Smith is the man for AG setup. Per Jim, and counterintuitive to expectations, the best way to get the woofer adjustments right is to make these adjustments while listening to the midrange while playing vocals, typically female vocals. I used this approach and it was effective. Using music with bass content in my experience results in incorrect settings leading to endless tweaking of the woofer.
The following provides some detail on this topic. Likely I found this in a previous thread on Audiogon. If you search on Duos or possibly Avantgarde (as I recall you'll find more info searching on Duos) there will be lots of discussions on this topic and on other aspects of AG setup. Have fun and enjoy your lovely speakers.
--From jim smith 10/2000. So often, when I've heard of a system where the subs (217, 225, whatever) just didn't integrate well with the midrange horns, here's what I found - the sub crossover point was set too low. I think the owner thought cutting the woofer out at a lower frequency would somehow make the system sound "faster." In fact, this left a bit of a hole in the response. In order to balance the levels now, the owner (or dealer, or exhibitor) would then raise the sub levels a bit. So we were left with a sub that obviously did not blend smoothly. The bass did make its own, somewhat unrelated sound.
A technique that I recommend is to position the speakers and the listening seat for the smoothest overall bass. Then, I find using female voice is a geat tool. If the voice sounds too chesty, the crossover may be a tad too high, but often it's that the bass is too high. Go too far the other way, and the voice is disembodied, lacking in "thereness."
Feel free to make very fine - almost imperceptible visually - level and/or crossover adjustments. The click stops are simply reference points - the controls are infinite. When you get female voices right, usually it'll mean you're through tweaking levels. Setting the bass level with bass information means you're forever feeling the urge to readjust the bass according to the sound of that source.
Finally, a final technique is listening to the sound of a wooden drumstick striking cymbals in a drum set. This is the finest bass level setting, after doing all I can with voice.
--Someone added:
I found 'Baltimore' on Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth album to perfectly illustrate what you (jim smith) mean. Its a very close miked recording. Set the x-over one notch too low and you'll notice marked sibilance and edginess to his voice. In the correct position the sound is beautifully natural. Similarly, turning up the bass from too lean adds presence to the point Lovett is truly in the room but one step too far and his voice begins to lose presence and become chesty. The reason this particular track is so good is the distinct contrast between the right and wrong positions, rather like focussing Leica binoculars.
--I think Jim wrote this:
The BEST way to adjust the bass is listen to the midrange (unless you have a RTA analyzer and trust it). Put on one of your favorite vocalists or a recording of an instrument you are familiar with and adjust the bass till you get just the right amount of warmth. It might take a few hours or days to get it *right* but there should be a definite area of adjustment where the instument or voice sounds whole and cohesive with good recordings. Find that spot and it should all come together. |
