Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?


After my Audio Science Review review forum, it became apparent that nearly the only way one can determine the measurements of an audio product is wait for a review on line or in a publication.  Most equipment is never reviewed or is given a subjective analysis rather than a measurement oriented review.  One would think that manufacturers used tests and measurements to design and construct their products. 

Manufacturers routinely give the performance characteristics of their products as Specifications.  Those are not test measurements.

I searched the Revel speaker site for measurements of any of their speakers and could not find any.  Revels are universally lauded for their exceptional reviewed measurements.  Lack of published manufacturer measurements is true for nearly every speaker manufacturer I've searched for on line, perhaps several hundred.   Same is true for amps, pre-amps, DACs, transports, turntables, well you get the picture.  Do they have something to hide?   I doubt the good quality products have anything to hide but poor quality products do.  

ASR prides itself in providing "true" measurements that will aid in purchase decisions.   Why don't the manufacturers provide these measurements so that reviewers can test if they are truthful or not?

Then there are the cables and tweaks for which I suspect that there are inadequate tests available to measure sonically perceived differences but which objectivists believe don't exist or are "snake oil."  

Well, please chime in if you have some illuminating thoughts on the subject.   

I would have loved to see manufacturers measurements on my equipment and especially those that I rejected.  

fleschler

From a newer Forum by @erik_squires   Pleasurably better, not measurably better

I have created a new phrase: pleasurably better.

I am giving it to the world. Too many technophiles are concerned with measurably better, but rarely talk about what sounds better. What gives us more pleasure. The two may lie at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I use and respect measurements all the time, but I will never let any one of them dictate to me what I actually like listening to.

From @curtdr 

Everybody's ears are different... So, if something measures "flat," that's not necessarily how my ear hears it; so, for my pleasure factor, I may prefer speakers that rise in the high frequencies to somewhat offset my ears' drop in highs, as a simple example.

The point about Bose is well-taken.  It depends on the audience and the application.  While not my primary listening speakers, I have a pair of original 301 v1, refoamed woofer of course, hanging by wires under my porch awning.  We play poker out there.  Everybody including me loves the sound, in that application.  We're not critically listening, and it doesn't matter: we like it.

A speaker series that defies the "measure flat = great" metric is of course the Klipsch Heritage series.  The sort of "it ain't perfect but it doesn't even matter because it sounds so very engaging" experience that many people, most critics included, adore.  Even the Heresy IV have moved me to tears on occasion, and I "grew up" as a neutral leaning sort of guy.  They're like a gateway drug... it's hard to go back to more laid back sound, once you get used to 'em... and the problem is, they have me jones-ing for more:  Forte IV, here I come???  

@erik_squires 

What if I like 2.8% distortion?  Sure, we can measure it, but the engineering goal of lower is not the same as my personal listening goal of making things that sound good to me. 

 

If you prefer 2.8% distortion that's fine and dandy.
Who knows, on certain music and certain genres I might like it too.

But then again what if this 2.8% distortion is always audible, on all music?

What if this sometimes nice distortion on some recordings then turns into nasty distortion that you can't 'hear through'?

Perhaps the strongest argument for neutrality is that you get to hear the differences in different recordings rather than them all being smothered in the same sonic sauce.

I recall that of the criticisms of the Linn LP12 was that it put it's own sonic signature on everything that was played upon it, as opposed to decks like the Pink Triangle which were far more neutral.

This sonic signature (midbass warmth?) could sometimes suit certain types of music (jazz soul and funk?) and sometimes spoil others (piano, strings, pop, and rock?). 

 

I was again reminded of this whilst watching the latest video from the audiophlliac himself, Steve Guttenberg, who recently changed his reference loudspeakers.

One of the reasons Steve puts forward for swapping his Klipsch Cornwall's for the PureAudioProject Duet 15's is exactly this issue about neutrality.

Even if the Cornwall's do other things better, the more neutral 15s allow you to hear the differences between recordings better. 

The problem with audible distortion is that there is no such thing as an entirely benevolent distortion in all cases..

@holmz "To say that the ears are all different would be like saying that the feel of a block of ice or a hot stove is different because all people “feel” differently."

No... we have glasses or custom lasik to correct for differences in vision, some people even have color blindness, and we all have different hearing profiles. If we all had 20/20 vision and hearing, nobody would need correction. As for old and hot, 32 is 32 and 212 is 212, freezing and boiling.... (and even so, some people wear jackets when it's 70 degree weather, while others are loving it in shorts and t-shirt). But that’s not the same as flat to 20hz when my hearing isn’t flat to 20 hz.​​​​​​... If my hearing rolls off at 12hz, then a speaker that rises at that point might actually sound "flatter" to me, at my point of perception, than one that does not rise to compensate for my ears’ rolloff point.

This is why we have bass and treble controls too... to help compensate not only for our own individual hearing but also for our own personal preferences and purposes. It’s music, for crying out loud! Taste matters. I’ve seen plenty of "technically perfect" performances that were boring, boring to me, anyway. There’s something to be said for heart and soul... immeasurable factors. It doesn’t make sense to say one "should" prefer this or that sound, especially if one is reasonably cognizant of audio. Somebody who tells me I should prefer some speaker instead of one that I actually, in usage in my home, like pleasurably better... well, I can confidently dismiss that person’s opinion in that case.

Saying flat is ideal always reminds me of philosophers who have very neat ideal theories which then bump up against real world experience; I’m oversimplifying, but Kant’s "everybody should be treated as if they were all equally rational" comes to mind, and Rawl’s "social justice" theories, as does Marx’s so-called "scientific" economic theories, however compelling on paper... some universal theory of human experience will never, as far as I can tell, be formulated.

Not to dismiss measurements, I check 'em out myself, but technical measurements of equipment don't dictate the pleasure factor of individual listeners... never have, and, as far as I can tell, never will.  The evidence of this claim can easily be seen by the variety of individual choices sophisticated audiophiles make when it comes to our own preferred speakers, for example, in our homes.  In old school terms, "east coast sound vs. west coast sound,"  ... and on and on.  

@holmz "And it does not matter what every member of the audience is hearing..."

If you’re a member of the audience, it certainly does! It matters to oneself.

Ultimately, it does not matter what every measurement is telling me, if it doesn’t sound great to me, with my ears, in my room, to my taste.

Like someone earlier in this thread here, I am not here to serve the gear, the gear is here to serve me... so matter how "good" or how "bad" the measurable performance, if it doesn’t serve me pleasurably better, then it has no place in my home. Some "audiophiles" really are more "technophiles;" and technophilia has it’s place, but it ain’t gonna dictate my loving audio preferences.

I’ve heard plenty of speakers that "measure better" but that I do not like as much as certain personal trusty pleasurables, so obviously it would be downright silly to buy the less enjoyable speakers just because they measure better! (unless I’m trying to impress somebody other than myself... or if I’m being masochistic or audio-moralistic and insisting to myself that I should like the less enjoyable speakers, and damnit I’m going to make myself like them better because I "should"... )

 

 

My comments: @chmaiwald Great!  Food comparison.  McDonald's burgers measure better than any other fast food burger for consistency.   Despite that, I only eat Angus ground sirloin burgers at Le Petit French restaurant because they taste better to me.  Amir's answer-Le Petit's burgers are too expensive so I am throwing away money when I could have purchased half a dozen McDonald's.  

 

From @chmaiwald 

From the top of my hat I can‘t think of any hobby or whatever gives you pleasure where least personality is something widely accepted as the ultimate goal.

“I went out dining, and let me tell you, that casserole was so accurate. I loved its linearity. I measured it.“

I‘m joking of course, but I think there‘s something to it. 

@holmz 

This thread is like a group therapy session for 4th graders.

And you were hoping to give up that teaching job and travel.

One manufacturer that I use that posts specs and measurements is Auralex for my room treatments. Of all the things you can screw up in a system you don’t want to screw up the room. I find their products an excellent value as well. They were really helpful answering questions about my setup too and offer a free room analysis, very responsive. If anyone reading this hasn’t bothered to treat their room yet don’t wait. If you look at the pics in my profile you can see various treatments, bass traps, absorbers, diffusors. You can’t really hear what your system is capable of until you tune the room. DSP is limited in what it can do:

https://auralex.com/spec-sheets/

They have an app you use to design your layout too: