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Audio Science Review = Rebuttal and Further Thoughts

@crymeanaudioriver @amir_asr You are sitting there worrying if this or that other useless tweak like a cable makes a sonic difference.

I don’t worry about my equipment unless it fails. I never worry about tweaks or cables. The last time I had to choose a cable was after I purchased my first DAC and transport in 2019.  I auditioned six and chose one, the Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria. Why would someone with as fulfilling a life as me worry about cables or tweaks and it is in YOUR mind that they are USELESS.

@prof "would it be safe to say you are not an electrical designer or electrical engineer? If so, under what authority do you make the following comment" - concerning creating a high end DAC out of a mediocre DAC.

Well, I have such a DAC, built by a manufacturer of equipment and cables for his and my use. It beat out a $9,000 COS Engineering D1v and $5,000 D2v by a longshot. It is comparable to an $23,000 Meridian Ultradac. Because I tried all the latter three in comparison I say this with some authority, the authority of a recording engineer (me), a manufacturer (friend) and many audiophiles who have heard the same and came to the same conclusion.

Another DAC with excellent design engineer and inferior execution is the Emotiva XDA-2. No new audio board but 7! audiophile quality regulators instead of the computer grade junk inside, similar high end power and filter caps, resistors, etc. to make this into a high end DAC on the very cheap ($400 new plus about the same in added parts).

@russ69 We must be neighbors. I frequented Woodland Hills Audio Center back in the 70s and 80s. I heard several of Arnie’s speakers including a the large Infinity speakers in a home.

fleschler
prof
3,474 posts
 

ASR fits a religion to the T.

 

No it doesn't.

It really doesn't.  I have to presume you haven't really spent a lot of time on ASR to produce such a misrepresentation.

Are there group dynamics on the ASR forum?  Of course!  Just as in every forum!  Just as in every aspect of human social life.  That doesn't make EVERYTHING LIKE THAT a "religion."

For one thing, the central tenet most adhere to is that inherent fallibility of human beings and what methods can help account for this - among them blind testing and the use of measuring tools that are more sensitive and reliable than our own senses.  (That is why, after all, most measurement devices are created - to make up for human limitations).

This very foundation is anti-dogmatic at it's core.  It allows people to, in principle, find out they are wrong, and find ways to settle some questions (always, provisionally) that would otherwise reside in unfalsifiable realms, such as purelysubjective claims.

That right there is a massive difference from any dogma or religion.

Does that mean any ASR member can not be blinkered, or dogmatic himself?  Of course not.  That can happen anywhere (which doesn't make The Whole Thing Like A Religion). 

 

But in actual practice, anyone who actually knows what goes on at ASR knows that it is FAR from religious subjects receiving dogmatic knowledge uncritically.  There is TONS of pushback, critique and discussion not only regarding Amir's tests, but on just about any subject you can point to!

Are there viable critiques of individuals on ASR, or perhaps some trends?  Sure.  And yes there will be social trends.  But it's lazy to just call that "fitting religion to a T."  That's like saying scientists attending a conference "fit religion to a T" because "look, they are congregating and hashing out their belief system, just like people do at a church!"

 

 

 

 

 

jerryg123's avatar
jerryg123
3,429 posts
 

No it is a cult and if you question the leader you get booted. I did. 

antigrunge2
1,415 posts
 

@prof 

measurements need to reflect reality. Unfortunately acoustics at this stage of scientific development is more art than science.….and being doctrinaire about using measurements when they don‘t reflect reality is very dogmatic, not scientific. 

clustrocasual
100 posts
 

Isn't it funny that there's no Food Science Review, filled with devotees who claim that coffee and wine notes are imaginary, that herbs must be measured by % points of acidity, and using your own feelings to create and taste dishes is foolish?

But food and audio are very similar - many things which can and cannot be measured, but ultimately being decided by our senses as the ultimate measurement tools. 

Imagine the engineers behind stoves and microwaves tearing down professional chefs for cooking based on their feelings. Yet that what ASR is to audio.

milpai's avatar
milpai
2,390 posts
 

I have to presume you haven't really spent a lot of time on ASR

I agree. Only a person who is insane can spend considerable time there. When the leader of a forum states that "I know all I have to know" to begin a discussion, that is the time you know that it's a closed forum and nothing can be gained by spending time with them.

good cross-talk measurements, proper balance in both channels reaching the ear etc

Very good point. And do all the folks have the exact same ear cavity size, etc? What if some people are hard of hearing, or some people are extra sensitive? You folks realize that not all people hear the same...right? But do you know, the ear sends the "vibration/sound" signal to the brain to process it further? Yes, I called it the "vibration/sound" because, till the brain completely processes it completely, we cannot identify what it is.

Then the following happens, as explained on brainfacts.org:

The next stop for sound processing is the thalamus. Located just above the brainstem, the thalamus is the brain’s relay station for incoming sensory information. Then the information travels to the auditory part of the cerebral cortex.
The brainstem and thalamus use the information from both ears to compute a sound’s direction and location. In the primary auditory cortex different auditory neurons respond to different frequencies, which maintains the frequency map generated by the hair cells. Some cortical neurons respond to sound qualities including intensity, duration, or a change in frequency, while others are selective for complex sounds. Still others specialize in various combinations of tones. At higher levels in the brain, neurons can process harmony, rhythm, and melody. These neurons combine the different types of auditory information so you can recognize a voice or instrument.

I don't think anyone has any instrument to test how person A perceives the same sound compared to person B. As far as I have read and understood - brain is a super complex organ. I believe the scientists community thinks that we hardly know how a brain functions (completely). Of course, the ASR community who mention their PhD, BEEE, MSc, position at Microsoft, etc probably know how brain works like the back of their hand. Unfortunately not many humans are as enlightened as these ASR souls.

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