Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

I agree, its been quite civil but the posters on this thread are gentlemen…Charles, Lalitk, Nyev, Jerry, metal, abasdad…all gentlemen. I hope my earlier comments weren’t mistaken for defensive or being curt…I was on the fly.

So, software..to Roon or not to Roon? Personal preference…for the most part. Streaming has gotten so good thaat even impressions formed 24 months ago may no longer be valid. Listen, then have an open mind when listening again in a few years. My opinions on software were formed early inm my career. The short version: I built a software company beginning in the mid ‘80’s and sold it to a big 6 (now big 4 LOL) acccounting firm. It is today, many revisions lateer, still a core part of their consulting practice. In those early days, IBM was the 500 pound gorilla and their hardware ran primarily with their software…their OS only with ther big boxes. I chose a different path and worked my niche. Moral to the story, no hardware where there is a captive OS so I may be biased against Aurender UNLESS it is vastly superior. The W20 was exceptional…it should make anyone happy. Im not in love with their software.

The Innuos? It sounds great with Roon and slightly better with their own Sense software. I loved my Zenith, never a bad experience, rock solid. Im always trying things and when I change it is because I prefer it. So here is how I tested…I also have a Nucleus + server at my office, so I brought it home and tested the Zenith running Roon core, streaming local files to my dac versus having the Nucleus running core and utilize the Zenith as an endpoint. Sounded great both ways. Next, I hung the Grimm off the same switch as the Zenith and I connected the Grimm as an endpoint, no upsampling and connected to the aes/xlr input on my dac and the Zenith via USB. I then queued up the same local file reference tracks on both zones and would listen to one and the other. I believe the Grimm via xlr (not upsampling) was barely, and I mean barely better than the Zenith via usb. In fact, I would not consider the Grimm and upgrade, just slightly different, perhaps a little better but certainly debateable.

Then I repeated the above at 2FS on the Grimm and it was a component level upgrade. At 4fs its a marked improvement. So if the Zenith is a 7 out of 10 sound quality the Grimm not upsampling was a 7.1 and the Grimm at 2FS was a 8 and at 4FS it would be a 8.2. I imagine there is no such thing as a 10, lets say a Taiko is a 9 and the W20 would probably be a 8.5. I heard what I heard and without a true brand bias and I kept the Grimm. The W20 Aurender was slightly better but the captive OS was a bummer and while money isn’t really a factor, double the price for a barely perceptable difference only in rapid fire back to back listening…and the Grimm has some other really nice features that are barely mentioned. The volume is as good as any Ive experienced. It is truly a digital preamp, allowing for analog input and it just absolutely works with no fussiness.

Now then….which server streamer is best? The one that meets your goals…not the one that meets mine…or Joe’s…or Tom’s.

Amp: Audio Note Jinro OR Backert Pre/First Watt SIT3

Digital: Grimm MU1-Totaldac D1-Tube-Mk3

Ethernet: Amplifi router-Network Acoustics Rubicon switch-NA Muon ethernet cable-Muon filter to Grimm

Cables: Audio Note Isis interconnects or Audience AU24 SX IC’s with the FW/Backert, A23 speaker cables, Shunyata Sigma V2 AES/EBU

Speakers: Devore Orangutans

@ghasley I’ve been wondering about this exact comparison - how the MU1 compares to others without its upsampling “advantage” engaged. So thank you for this!!!

I find it surprising that the MU1 without upsampling isn’t more ahead of the Zenith. The reason why is that I find that my PhoenixUSB Reclocker very noticeably improves my Zenith. The MU1 includes a high precision clock under the hood, so I would have expected it to have a bigger advantage over the Zenith on it’s own.

If the Zenith is a 7/10 when rated against any streamer / server regardless of price, which seems a reasonable score to me that I think I’d agree with, I’d say that the PhoenixUSB raises performance to a 7.5 / 10, or possibly even 7.7. Of note, had you used Sense with the Zenith vs the MU1 with Roon with no upsampling, the results may have been tied.

Maybe your DAC doesn’t care as much about whether it’s input has an ultra-precise clock? Or maybe the Zenith has other advantages, like it’s power management, that the MU1 doesn’t have. Either way I find your comparison very interesting.

One thing I do wonder with my current Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB setup is whether having the signal go through not one but two Audioquest Diamond USB cables negatively impacts the sound. I’m a strong believer that all cables impact sound (due to blind comparisons I’ve done), and that having a cable add it’s characteristics to the signal more than once could be too much of a good thing. I actually notice in my system that using one Diamond USB and one generic Innuos USB cable actually sounds more appealing in some respects and may be a tie vs using two Diamond USB cables. Another reason I’m interested in moving to a 1 box solution.

As an aside, when I first tried one Diamond USB cable at 1.6m length with the second cable being 0.6m, things sounded downright broken. The stock Innuos cable sounded vastly better in place of the 0.6M Diamond USB cable. It was at that point I tried a demo of two Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cables, where the dealer sent me two cables of different lengths, 1m and 2m. Comparing both lengths, and both lengths of the Diamond USB as well, with just the Zenith in the system and no reclocker, the shorter length version of each model of cable sounded broken compared to the longer version. Broken is too strong a word but the difference was really large. After researching what I heard with my ears, I found that some people, and some companies including Nordost, recommend 1.8M as being the optimal sounding length of USB cable. They cite something about shorter cables impacting “reflections” adversely, whatever that means. Not sure if AES/EBU is sensitive to cable lengths.

In case anyone is wondering, yes the 2m Nordost Valhalla 2 cable was better than the 1.6m Audioquest Diamond. But my thought was that the difference wasn’t that large and you could get further upgrading your system in other areas for a lower cost. The Valhalla 2 USB also had less (but more refined) bass energy than the Diamond which I would have missed. The midrange was rather sublime though.

@ghasley

I really appreciate your last post as it is very insightful. Based upon my various listening experiences over a period of time I have found that digital components relying on signal manipulation/math/algorithms as a rule didn’t particularly impress. Have I heard every incarnation of such? No.

Yet I do not doubt that the Grimm MU1 sounds as excellent as “many” have attested to. If I heard it and it was as good as advertised, I would easily accept  that. You have to listen to audio products and judge  them accordingly. Signal manipulation or not if it sounds good, end of the story.

BTW given the make up of your audio system I can imagine that it sounds truly splendid! I always enjoy reading posts from you and @lalitk . Keep them coming.

Charles

@ghasley 

Do you find the Network Acoustics Muon beneficial with your MU1? Hans Beekhuyzen really likes the Muon but said/suggested not as impactful with the MU1. Maybe due to sufficient internal filtering within the MU1?

Charles

@charles1dad 

Thanks for the question, the Muon streaming system is not necessary with the Grimm. It dramatically improves the Innuos, it seems the Grimm doesn’t need the “help”. The Muon system is also very effective if utilizing the inboard streamer on the Totaldac, less so when I also had a Maitner MA3. I think I briefly posted elsewhere that, since I already own the Muon system that I would just leave it in the chain…sortof like a belt and suspenders but I just dont hear any improvement to speak of when using the Muon with the Grimm. Thats another reason I enjoy the ownership experience with the Grimm. I find that it is agnostic to a degree with all the audiophile nervosa moves we all obsess over.  Power cable, ethernet cable, etc, etc. I have not tested. Many aes/ebu cables…just a Black diamond from Tellurium Q and the SHunyata Sigma V2.

@nyev Since I’m not a reviewer, my exercise was to determine what I preferred in my system. No controls, no real validity for others I guess. The ratings that I arbitrarily listed as well should have no bearing on the decisions of others as they may decide otherwise. With that said, the Innuos reclocker that you have elevates the Zenith to something more akin to “statement light” level. I did not discuss the effects of cables with the Zenith but I was using a Final Touch Audio Sinope USB cable, which I had chosen some time prior as my preference. I also want to point out that I had AQ Vodka ethernet cables (which I preferred to the Diamond) and I also have several Totaldac ethernet cables/filters. One VERY important factor that I didnt mention, which I believe provided material assistance to the Innuos, was that since I didnt find the Muon system to be necessary with the Grimm, I used it with the Zenith. That might explain the “base” Grimm and the “tweaked” Innuos Zenith performance gap being so close. Also, when writing the above I wanted to be careful when assigning some arbitrary score to the Grimm and the Zenith to intentionally not overstate some wide margin between them. The Grimm is better sounding without upsampling than the “tweaked” Zenith to my ears. The Grimm also accomplishes something you have as a stated goal; simplicity, fewer cables, etc.

I really do think the Grimm is a far better choice for many people than the vast majority of server/streamers out there anywhere near its pricepoint. The data into the Grimm is unfussy so a competent ethernet cable in is really all you need. All the gyrations of special switch this and fiber to copper to fiber to copper to external box BS..completely unecessary. So the Grimm must be dealing internally with a great deal of what we believe needs to be addressed with the ethernet stream. CHECK. Next up, the Grimm’s internal clocking IS superior to my ears and given that the AES/EBU is the output of choice from the Grimm, it will improve the clocking of virtually any reasonable consumer DAC. CHECK. I also find that the Grimm as a Roon core is a bit more equipped for the job that the Zenith. Anyone who has owned a Zenith knows that a periodic reboot is necessary be it to improve responsiveness or the rare but occasional lockup. No such issue with the Grimm. CHECK.

So, the summary…the Grimm is cable/filter agnostic, sounds great, it utilizes the superior Roon user interface seemingly without the perceived Roon sound challenges mentioned by some. I happen to believe that Roon has largely dealt with sound quality degradation in previous iterations, it just takes people a while to recognize that previous opinions have a shelf life of validity with a constantly updated software platform. I also believe the Grimm intercepts the stream before Roon owns the data, but that is a hypothesis on my part. Plug and play, rock solid operation and for those who still spin disks, the best part is you plug in your transport to the Grimm and you get all the upsampling and clocking benefits. The volume control is a joy to use audibly and physically. Now, if you happen to like the tweaky nature of setups we so often read about, then the Grimm may not be for you. I’m not saying there isnt some minute improvement to be had by those willing to go to the lengths and try everything imaginable when it comes to filters/cable/fiber coversion/reconversion/linear power supplies powering half a dozen different thingamajigs. Hey, Ive been there but that commenced at a time where we HAD to experiment to achieve a certain level of performance. With the Grimm, its just not necessary.

So, with the Grimm….imagine how much fun it is to plug it into your mains with a reasonably generic power cable, plug it in to your ethernet switch with a reasonably generic ethernet cable, plug it into your reasonably generic dac with a reasonably generic AES/EBU cable and you are done. This level of performance is all possible without all of the fussy, tweaky stuf of which we all grow so tired. Good luck on your journey @nyev as there are so many good products available today from which we may all choose.

As a fly by comment, I have spent time with the Diablo with the inboard dac. It is a solid dac and the Grimm clocking will take it to another level you didnt think was possible. What is possible today with USB is terrific and it has come a long, long way…but the logical side of your brain would have to conclude that the clocking on your dac is an absolute bottleneck and places a hard ceiling on what is possible with your sound quality potential. The Aurender and the Grimm either one would address that by enabling you to use the AES input. If that is your present path, alot of goodness awaits.