Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

Despite the title of my thread I have enough experience in this hobby to know that any “conclusion” I think I’ve reached may later be proven totally wrong!

Amen Brother!  I think any audiophile worth his/her salt has a thirst to keep learning.  After all, it’s only after some valuable experience of being proven wrong at some level do our systems truly improve.  Keep fighting the good fight!

I agree, its been quite civil but the posters on this thread are gentlemen…Charles, Lalitk, Nyev, Jerry, metal, abasdad…all gentlemen. I hope my earlier comments weren’t mistaken for defensive or being curt…I was on the fly.

So, software..to Roon or not to Roon? Personal preference…for the most part. Streaming has gotten so good thaat even impressions formed 24 months ago may no longer be valid. Listen, then have an open mind when listening again in a few years. My opinions on software were formed early inm my career. The short version: I built a software company beginning in the mid ‘80’s and sold it to a big 6 (now big 4 LOL) acccounting firm. It is today, many revisions lateer, still a core part of their consulting practice. In those early days, IBM was the 500 pound gorilla and their hardware ran primarily with their software…their OS only with ther big boxes. I chose a different path and worked my niche. Moral to the story, no hardware where there is a captive OS so I may be biased against Aurender UNLESS it is vastly superior. The W20 was exceptional…it should make anyone happy. Im not in love with their software.

The Innuos? It sounds great with Roon and slightly better with their own Sense software. I loved my Zenith, never a bad experience, rock solid. Im always trying things and when I change it is because I prefer it. So here is how I tested…I also have a Nucleus + server at my office, so I brought it home and tested the Zenith running Roon core, streaming local files to my dac versus having the Nucleus running core and utilize the Zenith as an endpoint. Sounded great both ways. Next, I hung the Grimm off the same switch as the Zenith and I connected the Grimm as an endpoint, no upsampling and connected to the aes/xlr input on my dac and the Zenith via USB. I then queued up the same local file reference tracks on both zones and would listen to one and the other. I believe the Grimm via xlr (not upsampling) was barely, and I mean barely better than the Zenith via usb. In fact, I would not consider the Grimm and upgrade, just slightly different, perhaps a little better but certainly debateable.

Then I repeated the above at 2FS on the Grimm and it was a component level upgrade. At 4fs its a marked improvement. So if the Zenith is a 7 out of 10 sound quality the Grimm not upsampling was a 7.1 and the Grimm at 2FS was a 8 and at 4FS it would be a 8.2. I imagine there is no such thing as a 10, lets say a Taiko is a 9 and the W20 would probably be a 8.5. I heard what I heard and without a true brand bias and I kept the Grimm. The W20 Aurender was slightly better but the captive OS was a bummer and while money isn’t really a factor, double the price for a barely perceptable difference only in rapid fire back to back listening…and the Grimm has some other really nice features that are barely mentioned. The volume is as good as any Ive experienced. It is truly a digital preamp, allowing for analog input and it just absolutely works with no fussiness.

Now then….which server streamer is best? The one that meets your goals…not the one that meets mine…or Joe’s…or Tom’s.

Amp: Audio Note Jinro OR Backert Pre/First Watt SIT3

Digital: Grimm MU1-Totaldac D1-Tube-Mk3

Ethernet: Amplifi router-Network Acoustics Rubicon switch-NA Muon ethernet cable-Muon filter to Grimm

Cables: Audio Note Isis interconnects or Audience AU24 SX IC’s with the FW/Backert, A23 speaker cables, Shunyata Sigma V2 AES/EBU

Speakers: Devore Orangutans

@ghasley I’ve been wondering about this exact comparison - how the MU1 compares to others without its upsampling “advantage” engaged. So thank you for this!!!

I find it surprising that the MU1 without upsampling isn’t more ahead of the Zenith. The reason why is that I find that my PhoenixUSB Reclocker very noticeably improves my Zenith. The MU1 includes a high precision clock under the hood, so I would have expected it to have a bigger advantage over the Zenith on it’s own.

If the Zenith is a 7/10 when rated against any streamer / server regardless of price, which seems a reasonable score to me that I think I’d agree with, I’d say that the PhoenixUSB raises performance to a 7.5 / 10, or possibly even 7.7. Of note, had you used Sense with the Zenith vs the MU1 with Roon with no upsampling, the results may have been tied.

Maybe your DAC doesn’t care as much about whether it’s input has an ultra-precise clock? Or maybe the Zenith has other advantages, like it’s power management, that the MU1 doesn’t have. Either way I find your comparison very interesting.

One thing I do wonder with my current Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB setup is whether having the signal go through not one but two Audioquest Diamond USB cables negatively impacts the sound. I’m a strong believer that all cables impact sound (due to blind comparisons I’ve done), and that having a cable add it’s characteristics to the signal more than once could be too much of a good thing. I actually notice in my system that using one Diamond USB and one generic Innuos USB cable actually sounds more appealing in some respects and may be a tie vs using two Diamond USB cables. Another reason I’m interested in moving to a 1 box solution.

As an aside, when I first tried one Diamond USB cable at 1.6m length with the second cable being 0.6m, things sounded downright broken. The stock Innuos cable sounded vastly better in place of the 0.6M Diamond USB cable. It was at that point I tried a demo of two Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cables, where the dealer sent me two cables of different lengths, 1m and 2m. Comparing both lengths, and both lengths of the Diamond USB as well, with just the Zenith in the system and no reclocker, the shorter length version of each model of cable sounded broken compared to the longer version. Broken is too strong a word but the difference was really large. After researching what I heard with my ears, I found that some people, and some companies including Nordost, recommend 1.8M as being the optimal sounding length of USB cable. They cite something about shorter cables impacting “reflections” adversely, whatever that means. Not sure if AES/EBU is sensitive to cable lengths.

In case anyone is wondering, yes the 2m Nordost Valhalla 2 cable was better than the 1.6m Audioquest Diamond. But my thought was that the difference wasn’t that large and you could get further upgrading your system in other areas for a lower cost. The Valhalla 2 USB also had less (but more refined) bass energy than the Diamond which I would have missed. The midrange was rather sublime though.

@ghasley

I really appreciate your last post as it is very insightful. Based upon my various listening experiences over a period of time I have found that digital components relying on signal manipulation/math/algorithms as a rule didn’t particularly impress. Have I heard every incarnation of such? No.

Yet I do not doubt that the Grimm MU1 sounds as excellent as “many” have attested to. If I heard it and it was as good as advertised, I would easily accept  that. You have to listen to audio products and judge  them accordingly. Signal manipulation or not if it sounds good, end of the story.

BTW given the make up of your audio system I can imagine that it sounds truly splendid! I always enjoy reading posts from you and @lalitk . Keep them coming.

Charles

@ghasley 

Do you find the Network Acoustics Muon beneficial with your MU1? Hans Beekhuyzen really likes the Muon but said/suggested not as impactful with the MU1. Maybe due to sufficient internal filtering within the MU1?

Charles