Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

“Right now there just isn’t anything I can do with the N20 with USB that will change”
@nyev

Your feedback on N20 USB output is interesting. I believe you’re now spoiled by PhoenixUSB which takes the incoming signal and completely regenerates it to an extremely high-precision signal to feed into your DAC. This goes back to the argument of separates vs one box. Is K50 / MU1 going to measure up, only time will tell :-)

I won’t be surprised if after trying N20 / K50 and MU1, you end up preferred your current trio of Innuos.

@lalitk I think you are right that the PhoenixUSB may have spoiled me. While it’s possible I could fall back to preferring Innuos, if I did that I’d move to the Statement (non next gen), which should be slightly better than what I have now, in a single device solution, as it not only has the PhoenixUSB embedded, it also has embedded Ethernet regen, on top of all the power supply benefits.

But, if I understand correctly, the USB output’s of the N20, K50, and the MU1 are not really optimized, while their AES interfaces ARE optimized, as intentional design choices. The N20’s AES output has the benefit of leveraging their high precision clock (so should be a better comparison with the PhoenixUSB performance), whereas the N20’s USB has no such optimization that I am aware of. Aurender’s own marketing says exactly this on the N20’s web page.

Mark Jenkins of Antipodes has talked in interviews about USB being flawed compared with other interfaces, and while I’m no expert, I think he’s likely correct, but I also think you can engineer around such flaws as Innuos (and I hear Taiko) have done. It’s just that Aurender, Antipodes, and Grimm didn’t bother. And Innuos totally didn’t bother with AES at all - until their latest line of products (Pulse).

So I think the fight isn’t fair for the N20 yet, as currently I’m comparing its non-optimized USB interface with Innous’ heavily optimized USB interface. The AES cable will allow me to compare all solutions on even terms. I think Innuos is likely king of the hill by a long shot when it comes to USB, aside from Taiko.

That’s all my running theory at least, to be substantiated through my testing….

So far, the N20 testing has really helped solidify what I like and don’t like about my Innuos setup. It’s true I had taken its strengths for granted:

Strengths I want to keep:

-Transparency

-Bandwidth (higher highs and lower lows)

-Soundstage Depth

Weaknesses I want to fix:

-Sets the listener back from the soundstage (not a flaw, this is just based on my preference)

-Could have better focus on all tones, with more solidity, and to use the word HiFi Advice likes to use, “incisiveness”.

-Not sure if I want this quite yet: could have slightly more “meat on the bones” in terms of an added richness and organic sound. The reason I’m not sure if I want this is that I don’t know if achieving this is possible without sacrificing the other qualities I’m after. I’m quite certain based on accounts of others that the K50 and N20 (with AES) are the only options that could achieve this. The question is, at what cost.

I do feel based on accounts of others that the MU1 or the K50 could possess have these all covered.  I probably shouldn’t discount the Statement too.

“to be substantiated through my testing….”
@nyev

That’s been my motto as well. Only through testing within the context of our systems we can leverage the strengths and recognize weaknesses of a given component. All else is pure speculation or simply an opinion. Given my extensive experience with N20, the N20 performance greatly varied by what’s ahead in your chain. With EMM DA2 DAC, I enjoyed N20 more with AES over USB. Not that USB sucked but I preferred AES as it sounded more addictive and natural to my ears. Granted, I was using two different brands of cabling. Another friend of mine, reported similar traits, N20 connected through AES to his MSB Reference DAC.

Later I switched to a Network Attached DAC with external clock and power supply. The N20 connected to my DAC via LAN (no USB or AES cabling) and re-clocked by external 10MHz clock was a different beast all together. The effect of external clock on N20 was pretty startling to say the least. The channel separation, lower distortion and a greater phase clarity became the hallmark of music signal. The new level of realism, more analogous, intimate presentation with external clock in the mix especially with higher resolutions files.

Again, this is going back to the argument of separates vs one box…USB implementations, OCXO’s clocks on a PCB board in a confined space can only do so much. And for most part, they do a pretty darn good job. Having experienced what I’ve with external clock, I can’t imagine going back to listening to a Streamer and a DAC without an external Clock in the mix. I am now looking forward to further pushing the limits with either W20SE or N30SA.

Whatever you decide, just enjoy the ride!

@lalitk +1

The day before yesterday I connected an Atlas Mavros (copper) AES between my N20 and DAC. Just interested to see if I'd been missing something regarding AES.

Well started listening yesterday evening and it was sorely lacking compared to the USB. Granted the USB is solid silver, but they are both similarly priced.

With AES music was less separated, sounded congealed with less micro detail and above all zero PRAT.

I could easily tell in a blind listening test. The USB being light, airy with high tops and clear bass. Timbre and textures were excellent too. Vocals were real.

So I know my Musetec 005 is USB optomised but as @lalitk said even all your downstream components can influence the sound.

Anyway we'll find out for certain when you get your cables.

@latik In stating I was sold on Antipodes, I was within days of purchasing K50 when I was notified the custom build streamer I ended up purchasing came up for sale. Again, K50 was my choice based on the second ethernet port optimized for output to second streamer, as you know still my preference at this point. I had nothing against the Aurenders or Innuos, simply fact Antipodes had the nice AES AND network outputs.